Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 1 Failure and Story

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude. Is failure, even losing, possible, or is it not? Is it a game, or is it a storytelling session?

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude. Is failure, even losing, possible, or is it not? Is it a game, or is it a storytelling session?


Notice it’s “storytelling”, not storymaking. Every RPG involves a story, the question is, who creates the story, the GM or the players?

Inevitably, 40-some installments into this column, “Old School” would come up.

. . . role-playing games do not have plots. They have situations at the campaign, adventure, and encounter level which the players are free to interact with however they wish– as long as they accept the consequences!” - Jeffro Johnson (author of the book Appendix N)​

This will be in three (oversized) parts, because understanding of this topic is fundamental to discourse about what some of us (at least) call RPGs, and there’s too much for one or two columns (I tried). I think of a Quora question that asked what a GM can do when a player’s character does something insane or ludicrously inappropriate during a game. The answers varied widely depending on the goals of the answerer. The Old School answer is, “let the character suffer the consequences of the action”; but for those on the New School side, it was a much more complex problem, as the character’s actions would make it hard if not impossible for the GM to tell the story he had devised for the adventure.

Likely everyone reading this has seen and perhaps discussed the term “Old School” in connection with RPGs. When I started to reconnect with RPG fandom a few years ago, I wasn’t sure what “Old School” meant. There seem to be many definitions, but I now see the fundamental divide as not about rules. Rather, it’s about the attitude of the GM, and of the players, toward losing and failure. That’s at the root of Jeffro’s rant, though he puts it in terms of plot and story, which are closely related.

As I said, this is in three parts. The second will talk about rules, GMing, and pacing, and about non-RPGs reflecting the two schools. The third part will talk about differences in actual gameplay.

I’m not going to be “one true way” the way Jeffro is (“thieves must have d4 hit dice” is one of his rants). I write about RPGs as games, not as story-telling aids or playgrounds, but I am describing, not prescribing even as I obviously prefer the Old School. Let’s proceed.

If it’s a game (Old School (OS)), there’s a significant chance you can lose, you can fail. If it’s a story session, with no chance you can lose, it’s something else. This is like a co-operative board game that you cannot lose: why bother to play?

In terms of story, in OS the players write their own story, with the benefit of the GM’s assistance. The GM sets up a situation and lets the players get on with it. (This is sometimes called [FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]"[/FONT][/FONT]sandbox[FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]"[/FONT][/FONT] in video games, though video games tend to impose an overall story as a limitation of using computer programming instead of a human GM.) The other extreme is when the GM tells the players a story through the game. (In video games this is called a linear game, where the story always ends up the same way.)

If a GM is Old School and runs the same adventure for several different groups, the results will probably vary wildly. If the GM is at the other extreme, the overall shape of the adventure will be the same each time, with variance only in the details.

Old School adventures are usually highly co-operative, because the characters will DIE if they don’t cooperate. New School doesn’t require cooperation, you’re going to survive anyway.

Not surprisingly, as the hobby has grown, the proportion of wargamers (now a small hobby) has decreased drastically. Many players are not even hobby gamers, that is, they’re not quite “gamers” in the old sense because the only game they play is their RPG(s). Many people want their games to be stories, so the shift from Old School to something else is not surprising.

D&D 5e bears the marks of the newer playing methods, as there’s lots of healing as well as the ridiculous cleric spell revivify for mere fifth level clerics.

There are all kinds of shades of the two extremes, obviously. And all kinds of ways of running RPGs. Next time, I’ll talk about more differences between Old School and newer ways of playing such as Rules and Pacing, and compare with non-RPGs.

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

hawkeyefan

Legend
[MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION] I feel you’ve stated a difference between old school and new school as Lew views it, and more clearly, perhaps, but I’m still not seeing anything about his view that danger is not possible in conjunction with a storytelling approach to gaming. He claims to be unable to even imagine how it’s possible.

Do you agree with his assertion in that regard?
 

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Aldarc

Legend
Thank you, it was an interesting read. It sorta reassured in me the notion, that "new school" (or narrative) games tend to emulate stories (and genres, specifically), while "old school" (I'd call it "classic", or simulational") systems tend to emulate a world/reality (not necessarily a "realistic" one, but a comprehensive and consistent one). The first wants to keep the story rolling,t he second wants to present the game's background and overall rules of existence neutrally.
I am not sure how accurate of a generalization that is either, though I (hopefully) see where you are coming from with this perspective. If I speak inaccurately, I hope someone will correct me of my misconceptions here, as I am a comparative novice to gaming, only starting with the release of D&D 3.0. My own understanding of Early Gen 1 era TTRPGs is that it stems closely from (a) its wargame origins, and (b) the adversarial and authoritative position of the GM in relation to the players, among other things.

One of the effects of these two facets was a "play to win" subtext to the game. Gary Gygax speaks often of "skilled/good play," sportsmanly conduct, and the like. There is an almost competitive presumption in the framework of play. And Gygax created a number of modules for such purposes. Tomb of Horrors was a module designed to humble players. (Nothing of story being bigger than characters here. The purpose was transparently metatextual: expert players vs. DM/Gygax.) It was not about the characters achieving their goals in the story, but, rather, about the players exercising skilled play to achieve a variable victory condition of the game (e.g., retire the character, defeat the dungeon). The players showed mastery over the game through good/skilled play with their characters. This may approach may even be a precursor the "git gud" mindset of video gamers. Learn to improve or keep dying.

In regards to (b), the GM was effectively Metatron, the voice of God. And what real difference is there between the voice of God and God? The effect of (b) was a reliance of the players on tactfully probing the GM such that they could skillfully navigate their characters within the imagined space. The GM was the opposition, or at least placed and played the opposition, and the players were also reliant on the GM to defeat said opposition. The players exercise good play by asking the GM appropriate questions and by navigating their spaces "correctly," whether this navigation entails skillful spacial or social maneuvers. Naturally, much as you allude to, there would certainly be consistency in the world given that it is per solam auctor, with the GM as both the "author" and "narrator" of the world space.*

* Herein I also suspect that one major difference between Old School and New School games rests in the presumed power dynamics in play between the DM/GM/MC/Referee/Narrator and the players.

"Gygax, what is best in D&D?"

"To crush the player characters, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their players."

The OS one can best be summed up as 'the story is, or is made to appear, bigger than any character within it'.
I believe that you have indicated that this is your own idiomatic play and GMing preference when it comes to the game, but I would be reluctant to characterize your play preference therein as indicative of the whole OS mindset or approach. To a certain extent what you say is likely true, though likely also romanticized, and you may believe that I peddle in semantics here. However, I suspect that, in part, the emphasis here may be on the wrong syllable. Or possibly a difference of framing.

I would suggest that it is not that the story is bigger than the characters. Instead, it's that the player's play is the emphasis. The player experiences a penalty of bad play or the misfortune of play. The player must start over. The player loses a pawn, but the player then switches to a new pawn. The infamous stack of premade character sheets at the ready to replace the ranks of deceased characters does not suggest that "the story is...bigger than any character within it." I even recall discussions of the player practice that characters were often not named until they survived to reach a certain level. IMHO, this suggests that the purpose of the game is not necessarily about either the characters or the story. In fact, story and characters may even be incidental or orthogonal to the OS approach, a Thomistic accident that may not reflect its actual substance.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Continuing my interrupted post from a day or two ago...
There's a bit of (probably unintentional) eliding happening here

When we talk about success and failure, we have to be clear: Succeed or fail at what? We have to be consistent if we want to understand. Are we talkign about succeedign on an action, or in achieving a goal - these aren't the same thing, but you're swapping between them above.
To me they're much the same thing. Succeeding on an action (climbing the wall) and achieving a goal (reaching the wall's top) arrive at the same end point: you're on top of the wall.

The main difference is that actions tend to be smaller scale while goals can be much larger in scale or scope.

Let us say you are trying to climb a rope.

An Old School game is largely geared to simulation, by way of resolution of fairly atomic individual actions. Either you climb it, or you don't.

In a new school game, you try to climb the rope. And now we ask why were you trying to climb the rope, as we are considering what happens if you fail, and also what interesting things might happen around you climbing the rope. The shades of success and failure are not only fail-forward, but also generating content in a way we know is relevant to current action.
The same is, or can be, true in OS as well. You fail the climb, and someone asks questions - either the player asks 'why' or the DM asks (herself) 'what might happen next' - leading to various possible context-dependent narrations and outcomes beyond just a simple fall for some damage.

The 'why were you trying to climb the rope [in the first place]' piece is in theory already dealt with by the greater context of whatever's going on at the time, and thus should be rather obvious.

At least philosophically, if not outright mechanically, the context in which the action is attempted matters in a New School game, where it generally doesn't in an Old School game. This is perhaps connected with how you most naturally denoted losses. An Old School game loss is more often a loss *in terms of the simulation* because that's what the game deals in. A New School game will more often address loss more in terms of goals, because the game style includes the goals/context mattering to play overall.
I disagree to some extent. The context matters in either case, not necessarily for the actual adjudication of the attempted action but for roleplaying and-or narrating what comes next should the action fail...or succeed, for that matter.

You're trying to climb a wall and fail, and fall (let's assume you're still awake and functional after falling). Both in OS and NS the questions of how and why you were making the attempt will influence what comes next:

You were trying to climb the wall to sneak into the Baron's manor - the next question will be how much noise did you make when you fell.
You were trying to climb the wall to escape the Baron's guard dogs - the next question will be whether the fall delays you enough for the dogs to catch you.

OS might separate these steps into more discrete parts than NS, but they're still there.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Just because something isn't easily quantifiable doesn't mean it's not worth considering.
Perhaps, but it does make it much more difficult to discuss in any sort of concrete terms.

Yes it's still there. However, D&D has a never really had much of a mechanism for effects like maiming in a consistent way, though.
True; though it's always had mechanisms for fixing these sort of things e.g. Heal, Restoration, etc., it's never really had any useful rules or guidelines to help with handling what happens between the maiming and the healing.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I am not sure how accurate of a generalization that is either, though I (hopefully) see where you are coming from with this perspective. If I speak inaccurately, I hope someone will correct me of my misconceptions here, as I am a comparative novice to gaming, only starting with the release of D&D 3.0. My own understanding of Early Gen 1 era TTRPGs is that it stems closely from (a) its wargame origins, and (b) the adversarial and authoritative position of the GM in relation to the players, among other things.

One of the effects of these two facets was a "play to win" subtext to the game. Gary Gygax speaks often of "skilled/good play," sportsmanly conduct, and the like. There is an almost competitive presumption in the framework of play.
In the sense that the game world is more or less out to kill you, should you be so brave and-or foolish as to go adventuring in it, then yes; and goal number one thus becomes simple survival. It's you (and your party, maybe) against the world (or major parts of it). Nothing at all wrong with this as a basis for design and-or play, but it does quite intentionally put the DM in a dual role of both referee and opponent - meaning a bad DM can ruin things just that much faster.

The 'survival as goal one' ideal has very much receded in later editions of D&D.

And Gygax created a number of modules for such purposes. Tomb of Horrors was a module designed to humble players. (Nothing of story being bigger than characters here. The purpose was transparently metatextual: expert players vs. DM/Gygax.) It was not about the characters achieving their goals in the story, but, rather, about the players exercising skilled play to achieve a variable victory condition of the game (e.g., retire the character, defeat the dungeon). The players showed mastery over the game through good/skilled play with their characters. This may approach may even be a precursor the "git gud" mindset of video gamers. Learn to improve or keep dying.
ToH is the extreme example often hauled out in these discussions. A number of other early modules have elements of this to them as well, and for a contextually-very-good reason: they were originally written for competitive tournaments.

Tournament modules by and large don't translate all that well to ongoing campaign play without some DM tweaking. With said tweaking, however, they're often just fine.

As for goals, player goals and character goals on the sacle you're talking about can very easily line up. Player and PC both want to finish the dungeon and-or complete the mission. Player and PC both want to see the PC get wealthy enough to retire at or around name level. Put another way, the 'victory condition' for both player and PC is very much the same.

In regards to (b), the GM was effectively Metatron, the voice of God. And what real difference is there between the voice of God and God? The effect of (b) was a reliance of the players on tactfully probing the GM such that they could skillfully navigate their characters within the imagined space. The GM was the opposition, or at least placed and played the opposition, and the players were also reliant on the GM to defeat said opposition. The players exercise good play by asking the GM appropriate questions and by navigating their spaces "correctly," whether this navigation entails skillful spacial or social maneuvers. Naturally, much as you allude to, there would certainly be consistency in the world given that it is per solam auctor, with the GM as both the "author" and "narrator" of the world space.*

* Herein I also suspect that one major difference between Old School and New School games rests in the presumed power dynamics in play between the DM/GM/MC/Referee/Narrator and the players.
With this last sentence I agree.

I believe that you have indicated that this is your own idiomatic play and GMing preference when it comes to the game, but I would be reluctant to characterize your play preference therein as indicative of the whole OS mindset or approach. To a certain extent what you say is likely true, though likely also romanticized, and you may believe that I peddle in semantics here. However, I suspect that, in part, the emphasis here may be on the wrong syllable. Or possibly a difference of framing.
Perhaps. But I think the side-along concepts of ongoing campaigns, 'stables' of characters, generally high(er) lethality and-or character (and player!) turnover, and relative ease of char-gen tend to back me up.

I would suggest that it is not that the story is bigger than the characters. Instead, it's that the player's play is the emphasis. The player experiences a penalty of bad play or the misfortune of play. The player must start over. The player loses a pawn, but the player then switches to a new pawn. The infamous stack of premade character sheets at the ready to replace the ranks of deceased characters does not suggest that "the story is...bigger than any character within it." I even recall discussions of the player practice that characters were often not named until they survived to reach a certain level. IMHO, this suggests that the purpose of the game is not necessarily about either the characters or the story. In fact, story and characters may even be incidental or orthogonal to the OS approach, a Thomistic accident that may not reflect its actual substance.
Story is sometimes orthagonal, to be sure, in situations where the DM and-or players take what might have seemed like a bunch of disparate adventures and kind of put a story together after the fact - been there done that. :)

But story is sometimes also built in, or intended to be until-unless the players/PCs make some hard left turns.

However - and this is what I'm really getting at - in either case it's the story of the party and what it achieves as an entity that matters and that will be retold (both in and out of the fiction, for all that), no matter how many actual characters were gone through in the process.
 

Jacob Lewis

Ye Olde GM
If this article is "Old School", can we expect the other parts won't be published because this failure caused by TPK? Typical Pulsipher Knowledge kills everything good in this hobby and my mood.
 

If this article is "Old School", can we expect the other parts won't be published because this failure caused by TPK? Typical Pulsipher Knowledge kills everything good in this hobby and my mood.

*sigh* So, don't read his articles. I know a lot of people rail about his articles and / or opinions. I wouldn't read them if they upset me that much. I avoid articles by several authors. I read his not because I'll agree (or disagree) with everything he says but because they spawn interesting discussions about more than the minutia of mechanics (although I read some of these as well...). Life is too short to do things that will kill your mood.
 

Jacob Lewis

Ye Olde GM
[MENTION=55149]R_Chance[/MENTION] You are all-knowing and all-wise, sir! I shall engrave your words into my psyche where I can grow it into a shrine, lest it become a beacon to guide me in my days of misery and despair for knowing that He Who Hath One Fan can depend on you to remind me that I don't need to read articles anymore!

Oh, I think my mood is improving. ;)
 

He claims to be unable to even imagine how it’s possible.

Do you agree with his assertion in that regard?
Although I may not be following the article correctly, I could see how a "new school" story-based game might be incompatible with the concept of loss. It does hinge on a fairly narrow interpretation of the two camps, though.

Basically, "old school" is actually role-playing. The player is the character, as they say. Ignore everything about Gygax and war-gaming (for the sake of this argument). You are thinking like your character, and experiencing the world from their perspective. If the character loses something, then it is like the player losing that thing, because that's your perspective.

To contrast, "new school" is actually story-telling. The player is not the character; the player exists fully within the real world, and is (collaboratively) telling a story about the character. If something happens to the character, then it's no skin off your nose, because you're safely ensconced in the real world. There's nothing that can happen within the game world that can affect you, because you are not your character. And in that case, real loss (for the player, rather than the character) would be impossible.

Another way to look at it is from the concept of investment, though. One thing that I think Gygax would agree with is the idea that, when your character dies, you're losing all of the time and energy you've put into the character for them to get that far. Even if the character is just a game piece, and you're going for the high score, you have to invest a lot of time and energy into getting that score; and when the character is removed from play, all of the work up to that point becomes meaningless. Or even if it's just that your cool sword gets disjuncted, all of your work toward acquiring it is negated.

And I don't want to speak for story-gamers, but I'll give them credit that they can also be invested in their character and the story. They should still (hypothetically) be able to lose their investiture of time and energy, if the story moves in a direction they don't like.

So I think that just goes back to a disagreement about the basic definition of "loss".
 

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