Mearls On D&D's Design Premises/Goals

First of all, thanks Morrus for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes. That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to...

First of all, thanks [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes.

That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to fans of the other, but those differences do matter. There are ways in which I like the prescriptive elements of 3.x era games (I like set skill difficulty lists, for example) but I tend to run by the seat of my pants and the effects of my beer, so a fast and loose and forgiving version like 5E really enables me running a game the way I like to.
 

pemerton

Legend
You got the mechanics for an attack wrong. Initiative is a separate mechanic that doesn't have to result in a single attack, so it's not a part of the attack mechanics. Damage happens AFTER the attack mechanic if successful, and also is not a part of it. The attack mechanic is...

<establish DC, roll a 20 check, apply applicable modifiers, compare to DC to determine success or failure> Just like skills. Where DC = AC. That's the entirety of the attack mechanic.
If I get the argument that you and [MENTION=6704184]doctorbadwolf[/MENTION] are running correct, it's that attack checks are the same as ability/skeill checks except that instead of generating consequences for the shared fiction they trigger further mechanical processes.

Everything there seems to be located in the exception rather than the sameness. Obviously, rolling a d20 and adding some numbers is the same process whatever the context, but rolling a d20 and adding some numbers isn't how you resolve a fight in any version of D&D (contrast, say, HeroWars/Quest where it is; or BW, where it can be (if the extended resolution option is not being used) subject to the caveat that rather than a d20 it is a pool of d6s).
 

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pemerton

Legend
The whole point, as I see it, of ruling vs rules, is that you rely on the GM to tell you how the interaction with his world works, and the rules are a support for the GM to do this... as opposed to the rules defining how you interact with the world. To me that is a welcome change of pace, and a nice return to the "old days".
How would you characterise the following rule:

When you consult your accumulated knowledge about something, roll 2d6+Int bonus:

✴On a 10+, the GM will tell you something interesting and useful about the subject relevant to your situation;

✴On a 7–9, the GM will only tell you something interesting—it’s on you to make it useful;

The GM might ask you "How do you know this?" Tell them the truth, now.​

I don't see how it fits into a dichotomy between "the rules supporting the GM telling you how your interaction with his/her world works" and "the rules defining how your interact with the world".

My reason for asking is that because I don't think your suggested dichotomy covers the field, I don't know what you're trying to tell me about adjudication in 5e.

DnD isn’t a narrow game. It isn’t quite generic in the sense that GURPS is, but it is generic in the sense that it deals in goals on a campaign basis, rather than on a total system basis.

DnD is meant to be played by groups that was dungeon crawling and groups that want courtly intrigue, and groups that want both, in one game, from session to session. This is part of why DnD is so popular. It is very well constructed to be a game that can have multiple goals, and let the group simply choose the win conditions.
I think a courtly intrigue game of D&D is almost certain to involve issues around Charm Person and Suggestion spells - particulary if it's a game using the AD&D versions which (by contemporary standards) are super-high powered. At mid-level there will be ESP and other divination-related issues too (which 2nd ed-era stuff solved (for some value of "solved") by giving all diplomats a Ring of Mind Shielding or similar).

(The above is not theorycraft. It's extrapolation from experience.)

Character builds that support dungeon crawling (high capacity to absorb ablative damage; magic oriented towards fighting and exploration challenges; etc) tend to leave other aspects of character underdeveloped. The contrast even between D&D and Classic Traveller (1977) in this respect is fairly striking.

Another difference between D&D and other games that I personally would see as more versatile within their genres is that so much real estate in D&D is taken up with spells and, in later versions, similar discrete list-selected class features (feats, powers, the range of class abilities in 5e). The difference between a paladin and a ranger could be the difference between gain advantage when your honour would help and gain advantage when your knowledge of the wilds would help, but it's not.

(Also, and despite the name, GURPS is not especiallly generic. I think it offers a pretty consistent and fairly tightly focused gaming experience, of slightly low-powered Hero.)
 

pemerton

Legend
It’s all well and good to describe my attacks differently than Tommy describes his, but if we’re ultimately still rolling the same d20 to see if we can roll the same d8, with maybe slightly different modifiers, then I’m not really doing anything different.
I think a lot of people think of roleplaying in terms of the overlaying of colour that doesn't actually change the core of the shared fiction.

I think that's essential if eg an AP is also going to be a roleplaying-intensive experience.

I'm going to call on [MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION] to see if he will share more thoughts on this, as I'm pretty sure he has some!
 

pemerton

Legend
I meant that the supposition that players can depose a King without expending a lot of coin to do so, while common in murder-hobo fantasy, doesn't chime with my game world. I've no idea whether I'm alone in that conception!
Well, Conan did it, and so did Flash Gordon, so I think that makes it fair game in D&D, at least in principle!
 

pemerton

Legend
A game or setting that is different from the real world and uses a currency that is different from the real world needs to provide some form of commerce benchmark for the GM and players to use **if** spending currenct to acquire stuff is something that is within the scope of the game.
And D&D just happens to use arms and armour - things that are not consumer goods in the world most of its players are familiar with, and that most of those players wouldn't know how to extrapolate from for other stuff that is more familiar - as its benchmark?

Sometimes this can be an abstract - wealth ratings and DC checks or rank and quartermaster checks - but if this is something the game wishes to have in play it helps to provide benchmarks.

If you look at 5e they provide in the PHB a fairly noticeable cross-section of basic costs they see as ones common enough.

I would expect other settings and other expansions to add more details.
None of this addresses my point: if the argument against including the mechanical significance of fancy clothing is that each GM should individualise it for his/her table, why is combat gear different?

As for why have rules for how swords and shields affect combat - they are combat implements and are covered as such. Their basic functions are integrated into the combat system. Could 5e have gone more abstract - sure - but it was a design choice they made to include that level of granularity - to tie specific results to specific weapons and it seems to have done well by their audience.
Which is exactly what I've been saying - there is no uniform resolution system, as combat has a fixity and a mechanical granularity that non-combat does not.

And in that way is also supported as a focus of play that contrast quite markedly with other fields of endeavour.

I won't try to divine what you call classic traveller but I seem to recall plenty of price lists in classic traveller and I started with the little black books and have played most of the systems since then too.
I mean pre-MegaTraveller. (I use the 1977 edition with a few mods drawn from the 1981 (?) updates, the Special Duty line on the MegaTraveller lifepath tables, and Andy Slack's Backdrop of Stars articles in White Dwarf.)

Classic Traveller has price lists, but those aren't what tell you what the gameplay purpose of money is. That is ascertained from the rules for combat, for bribery, for interstellar travel, and for world exploration.
 

Sadras

Legend
4e is something of an exception because most of the PC build elements - powers - can also be used, via p 42 and related improv guidelines, to play the sort of role that descriptors play in more standard narratively-oriented games.)

Can you provide an example of this? As I'm not following your train of thought here.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
Well, Conan did it, and so did Flash Gordon, so I think that makes it fair game in D&D, at least in principle!
Definitely fair game!

I just prefer a game world that presents solid resistance to players :D

Thus I prefer to envision that a King is generally protected by enough power that a single PC party is insufficient to dislodge them, barring less usual (but relevant) cases where said King is already on shaky ground!
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I think a lot of people think of roleplaying in terms of the overlaying of colour that doesn't actually change the core of the shared fiction.

I think that's essential if eg an AP is also going to be a roleplaying-intensive experience.

I'm going to call on [MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION] to see if he will share more thoughts on this, as I'm pretty sure he has some!
I think if you accept the premise that roleplaying is primarily about inhabitation of a character and an invocation of the character's sensory environment, than it follows that the generation of a narrative is a secondary concern. I can play to experience my character's viewpoint whether I'm pursuing an adventure goal or wandering around a town talking to NPCs.

I tend to look to video games for examples since I have more experience in that realm, but look at shared environment games like Second Life where the ultimate "goal" of gameplay is to customize and display your character. And for APs, look at open world games like Grand Theft Auto V. There's a storyline built into the game that the character can experience, but at any point you can ignore the plotline and decide to do some car racing, or get into fights, or try to steal helicopters.

I think the biggest problem for protagonist driven play is that there's no existing analogue in other media; playing an open world RPG like Skyrim or Witcher 3 is pretty similar to playing an adventure path TTRPG (the TTRPG has much less visual immersion, but more freedom of character customization and more room for plot customization).
 

Oofta

Legend
One choice, made at character creation, that boils down to two skills and two tools/languages.


One choice, made at character creation. Has a decent mechanical impact, but does little to differentiate the way a character plays.


Great for fleshing out a character's personality, but has next to no mechanical impact. Also made at character creation.


Again, character creation only choices that are good for roleplaying but have absolutely no mechanical impact.


What I'm looking for is more ways to build characters to make them mechanically different from one another. In particular, more character building choices to make beyond 1st level. Currently, you make all character building decisions at character creation, with the exception of a Subclass at 2nd or 3rd level (if you didn't decide that ahead of time), and a Feat or ASI once every four levels (a few extra for Fighters and Rogues). That is very, very little to make one character actually behave differently than another.

I did some quick counts over at DnDBeyond because I was curious. There are
37 races
12 classes
80 sub-classes
34 backgrounds
60 feats

So mathematically, there are thousands of options depending on how you calculate it. I know ... you'll tell me that 99.9% of those are not "valid" options because it wouldn't make sense to run a <insert race> <insert class> and that <insert feat, background, whatever> wouldn't make sense. It's not that there aren't more options than you could play, it seems that most options are eliminated out of the gate or that playing a combination that isn't "optimal" isn't valid.

Even if there were more options, a lot of people would still gravitate to a handful of optimal options. It would be the same complaint or the complaint would be that there are so many options that build X is broken. Personally I'd be happy running my dwarven rogue or gnome barbarian because I don't care all that much about eaking out numerical supremacy, it's just not that important.

If they had more options, it would just lead to a game of grognard character building that they were trying to avoid. I also think it wouldn't really solve anything because there will always be a handful of builds that on a spreadsheet look best.

As far as decisions being front-loaded, that is a good point. Not sure that it's really all that different though from previous editions. I always had a general idea of where my PC was going to go, and you had to have certain prerequisites to qualify for prestige classes so it was more of an illusion of choice than anything. In 5E you have the option of multi-classing which you can do at any time, much more flexible than early editions.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
And yet leading philosophers of the interpretation of written language (I'm thinking especially of written law) use the notion of utterance meaning to explain the meaning of a statutory or constitutional provision.

It's almost as if language, especially in technical or semi-technical contexts where audiences are already aleter for nuance, is flexible and capable of being adapted and repurposed without engendering more than (at worst) minor confusion until the usage is made clear!

Well, then. I'm going to take a page out of WotC's book and declare that the bolded word is now Reporpoised.

Por.poise

noun
1. a small toothed whale with a low triangular dorsal fin and a blunt rounded snout.
2. the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. (adapted by Maxperson, because language is flexible) :n:



 

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