D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] - Can you Take 10 or Take 20 on a Hide check?

[Krinkle]

BTW, how do y'all determine Spot DC for random encounters at distances where neither hides, and neither initially knows the other is there?

Opposed Spots. Listen vs. an arbitrary DC when appropriate. Circumstance penalties to one group or both when appropriate.

 

[RigaMortus]

Couple things here (from the 3.5 SRD)...

Opposed Checks
An opposed check is a check whose success or failure is determined by comparing the check result to another character’s check result. In an opposed check, the higher result succeeds, while the lower result fails. In case of a tie, the higher skill modifier wins. If these scores are the same, roll again to break the tie.

and

Trying Again
In general, you can try a skill check again if you fail, and you can keep trying indefinitely. Some skills, however, have consequences of failure that must be taken into account. A few skills are virtually useless once a check has failed on an attempt to accomplish a particular task. For most skills, when a character has succeeded once at a given task, additional successes are meaningless.

Also note, that the Hide skill does not have the option to "Try Again".

Now, I can see this going both ways at this point. First off, I do not believe you can fail at a Hide check. A roll of a 1 still means you have successfully hidden, just not very well. If I roll a 1 on my Hide check, how does this mean I failed? If someone comes around the corner and tries to spot me, and gets lower than a 1 on their Spot check (because of low Wis or whatever), than I didn't fail, did I? So I stand firm in the belief that you can never really "fail" on a Hide check.

Now what makes you "fail" is the result of the opponent's Spot check. If there is nobody around to observe you (oppose your Hide check), you have no way of failing, because you don't have a target DC to beat.

Now, on the other hand, since there is no mention that you can "Try Again" on a Hide check (like there is with several other skills), that might conclude that you can't Take 20. Because, after all, Taking 20 is doing it over and over again until you get it right. But apparently you can't do it over and over again (re: Try Again) with Hide.

So I'd accept that:

(a) You can Take 10 with Hide.
(b) You can not Take 20 with Hide.
(c) If you have the time to spare, you can take extra time to Hide "better" thus gaining a circumstance bonus to Hide.

 

[wheeljack]

Ugh....

You can always take a 10 as long as your aren't under duress (i.e. battle, etc.)

Need to know what you can take a 20 on
try this list from Sean K Reynolds
Take a 20

For thoose that are to lazy to follow the link
Hide:
Yes, because there is no penalty for failure (really, there isn't ... a low roll means you're setting a low DC for people to Spot you, and while the result of your opposed roll may be bad, the roll itself is not a success or failure).

Note this was created for 3.0 but I don't see why it would change for 3.5

 

[Mallus]

You might make it after 20 shots, buts thats twenty free throws, and spending two minutes staring at the net won't help for a single shot.

I can't help myself either...

I'm coming around to the idea that circumstance bonuses are the better mechanic to use, but that anaolgy doesn't work. The scenario I'm picturing consists of a small unit of soldiers spending hours trying to find the optimal place for an ambush, with plenty of feedback between observing soldiers and hiding soldiers, working every angle, every possible position in a given area. That's not equivalent to "staring for two minutes".

On a barren hill with a single bush there's not much to be gained in spending 2 minutes carefully hiding behind the bush.

No, there isn't, but that's where the circumstance penalty comes in.

I realize that a +20 is a whopping bonus, but given the right circumstances [terrain and time], it doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I'm not suggestion characters should frequently be able to do this, but if the time and place is right, sure.

I always thought the spirit of rules behind the take 20 mechanic was to establish a way for moderately competent characters succeed at difficult tasks under optimal conditions, tasks that highly skilled characters could perform quickly and/or under duress.

 

[Nail]

Opposed Spots. ....(snip)...

Not to play "gotcha" or anything, but where did you get this, and how does it work?

A thought occured to me: throw out encounter distnace in the DMG, and just go with Spot rolls, -1 per 10. The higher your Spot roll, the farther away from "them" you are when you first see them. Throw in circumstance modifiers to all parties depending on terrain and lighting. Hey, that sounds easy!

 

[MadScientist]

I thought that you couldn't take 20 on any skill check that was an opposed check. In the case of Hide it is a skill that is allways an opposed check (vs either spot or search). I don't think you can take 20 on a hide check.

Rationally if you are hiding, you can not "take 20" the very moment someone else is attempting to spot you. I would say your attempt at hiding doesn't stop once you're hidden, it is a continuous effort the whole time you try to remain hidden. When hiding an item and leaving it I would probably allow someone to take 20.

 

[Nail]

The scenario I'm picturing consists of a small unit of soldiers spending hours trying to find the optimal place for an ambush, with plenty of feedback between observing soldiers and hiding soldiers, working every angle, every possible position in a given area.

Yup, circumstance bonus, along with "reality checks" from others. Perhaps even "aid another". Perfect example, and (FWIW!) it looks like we now agree.

Woot! Mallus agrees with Nail! It's a red-letter day!

 

[MadScientist]

Re: Ugh....

Need to know what you can take a 20 on
try this list from Sean K Reynolds
Take a 20

For thoose that are to lazy to follow the link
Hide:
Yes, because there is no penalty for failure (really, there isn't ... a low roll means you're setting a low DC for people to Spot you, and while the result of your opposed roll may be bad, the roll itself is not a success or failure).

Sean K. Reynolds
Here's a list of D&D skills, whether or not you can take 20 on them, and why or why not. If you disagree with my reasoning, I'd love to hear about it in my message boards (I fully admit my reasoning may be wrong on some of them).

Emphasis mine.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

[Krinkle]

In some cases a +20 circumstance bonus would be just fine. I'm just not convinced that the "Taking 20" rule is the way to get you there. Rather, you should just give a +20 CB. It doesn't seem useful to sometimes allow a character to take 20 (Like when a small unit of soldiers are spending hours trying to find the optimal place for an ambush) to and to sometimes apply a circumstance bonus (a bush on barren hill). Why not just give the soldiers a CB of +20 rather than letting them take 20? That way you can tailor it to the situation. A forest? +20. A dreary, dark swamp? +30. A desert? +0.

I agree that the example with the soldiers isn't the same as "staring for 2 minutes." Nor is it the same as "trying until you get it right."

I dislike taking 20 for hide for two reasons. First, I think it violates the letter, and more importantly, the spirit, of the Take 20 rule. It just isn't that same as opening a lock, or lighting a lighter thats almost out of fluid, or opening a child-proof bottle of medicine. Second, an arbitray 20 takes away from the ability of the DM to consider the environment and also doesn't encourage the player to use his environment when he uses the skill. Circumstance Bonuses, properly used, encourage the character to use the story and setting, rather than a semantic interpretation of the SRD, when making decisions. It the difference between a character saying " I'm hiding under the bed of the Demon Queen of All That is Lewd and Carnal(tm). Can I take 20? And "Can I get a circumstance bonus to my Hide if I use Bluff and Disguise to look like a dust bunny and used Kleenex?"

 

[Mallus]

Woot! Mallus agrees with Nail! It's a red-letter day!

OK, ok, its a circumstance bonus. A circumstance bonus that could conceivable even exceed +20 ["Look sir, someone left a portable hole behind that large rock, we could hide the unit it there."].

So I would, in fact, hand out circumstance bonuses of +20 [or more]. I'll have to try that out the next time I DM, starting with the opponents first, of course.