Charles Ryan (and others) out at WotC?

Fighter1 said:
Whoa…hold on now; lets keep in mind that distributers and many retailers may or may not know anything about RPG’s; it is not like say Wine where if you know a few things you can at least tell the difference between 2-buck chuck and actual Napa wine.

Why is it such a hard stretch to ask that the game retailer know his product? Walk into any other type of retail business and you have a certain expectation that the employees and people who manage the store know their product enough to sell it to you. However, walk into a game store and ask the person behind the counter about an RPG or other game and you'll either get a "deer in the headlights look" or some lame BS about it that shows the person hasn't even tried to understand what he or she is selling.

Let me be clear. I work in a gaming store. I am responsible for the games that are ordered and the games that are played. I make it a point to do everything I can to educate all other employees about games and gaming so they can at least make a somewhat informed opinion on the subject and not just say, "You'll have to ask Steve. He works Friday nights and all day Saturdays. Try then." (Which still happens, but not to the degree it did 2 years ago.)

As a retail buyer, I expect my distributor to have at least a passing familiarity with the products they offer. Do you know that almost no one in the sales staff for the largest US games distributor plays games at all? Wouldn't you think that as a company that specializes in selling games, you would require your employees to become knowledgable on the subject? Guess what? It is actively discouraged there. I know because I have several friends who work there and have been told point blank that knowing the games are not important, rather taking orders is. Order takers and not salesmen. It's all about the short term money and not a long term investment that will lead to more money. Now to be fair, I wouldn't expect my salesman to know everything about every game, but I do expect that he will be up to speed on the more popular games like Warmachine, Yu-Gi-Oh, Magic, Warhammer, and D&D. And all too often that is not the case.

A significant percentage of gaming shops in the U.S. are owned by the hobby enthusiast, not the individual who is out to run the store like a business. The hobbyist stocks his favorite games and uses the store as a means to get his personal gaming stuff at retail cost (usually between 45-50% MSRP). When he places an order for product with his distributor, most likely he grabs his copy of GameTrade Magazine and orders directly from it, buying whatever looks good and relying that his sales rep will guide him on the hot ticket items. The sales rep isn't really a sales rep though. He's an order taker. He is relying that the retailer already knows the product and is ordering exactly what he needs to be successful and pay his bills. Whereas the individual who runs the store like a business looks at market research, his current budget, makes informed decisions, and orders based on what sells in his store. He already knows that it is his responsibility to know his product and his customers so he doesn't rely upon his sales rep to pad his order. He already has everything covered. He is also a very rare commodity in the world of retail gaming.

This is one reason why I have been a vocal proponent for the average gamer to be more active with their LGS and tell them specifically what products they want to see on their shelves and then follow through by making those purchases at the store. The decline in sales of RPGs isn't because gamers aren't buying. If that were the case, Gen Con would have been a miserable year instead of most manufacturers having stellar sales. The problem lies in a breakdown somewhere in the distribution to retail side of things.

One last thing, if Hasbro were to sell the D&D brand, it would be sold for no less than $30 million dollars (that figure comes from more than one persons who used to work for Wotc and were in positions to know and understand how much it would take). There are few companies that can bankroll that kind of money that would be able to effectively manage the brand and not cause more damage than has already been done. When I look at gaming companies that could even remotely do it based on sales trends and past history of growth, the only gaming company that could even be considered might be Mongoose (in about 5-10 years) assuming their rate of growth remains a constant upward curve. All others would fall way short of the mark.
 

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Ghostwind said:
One last thing, if Hasbro were to sell the D&D brand, it would be sold for no less than $30 million dollars (that figure comes from more than one persons who used to work for Wotc and were in positions to know and understand how much it would take).

Got it. Don't buy power ball tickets until it caps (taking into account taxes) 60 million or so. ;)
 

eyebeams said:
I believe, but can't prove, that people who buy RPG products regularly will usually keep doing it even when they cost more, and those who are marginal buyers cannot be enticed by low prices. The former group buys games as artifacts in of themselves, regardless of play value, and the latter have no use for anything beyond core releases.

You are right, up to a point - the current $35-50 price bracket is the murky area and, from pretty much now onwards, you will see the market gravitating towards the extremes. Most books will be $30 or less, with a few 'premium' items for more (often much more).

RPGs are luxury items and, the thinking goes, if someone wants a book, they will buy it almost regardless of cost. There are, however, limits and we are beginning to hit those.
 

eyebeams said:
I believe, but can't prove, that people who buy RPG products regularly will usually keep doing it even when they cost more, and those who are marginal buyers cannot be enticed by low prices. The former group buys games as artifacts in of themselves, regardless of play value, and the latter have no use for anything beyond core releases.
I completely agree with this. At least, it matches the experiences of myself and my three gaming groups. We are pretty much either total whores who continue a healthy purchasing habit no matter what, or people who buy virtually nothing except what is absolutely necessary.
 

Tharian said:
Wait. You mean that the current slew of products that are selling for $40 or more are low priced?
As eyebeams and MongooseMatt have said, no. It's not quite high and not quite low. For products I want, I have no problem paying $40+, especially if it means financial stability for the publisher.

As for the low end (i.e., products I can be enticed to purchase on a whim), PDFs seem to be starting to fill that niche.
 

buzz said:
We are pretty much either total whores who continue a healthy purchasing habit no matter what, or people who buy virtually nothing except what is absolutely necessary...

...which, if you are a gamer in a group where the DM has all the necessary materials, like mine, may be absolutely nothing. Several players in my group don't even have PHBs
 

Ghostwind said:
Why is it such a hard stretch to ask that the game retailer know his product? Walk into any other type of retail business and you have a certain expectation that the employees and people who manage the store know their product enough to sell it to you. However, walk into a game store and ask the person behind the counter about an RPG or other game and you'll either get a "deer in the headlights look" or some lame BS about it that shows the person hasn't even tried to understand what he or she is selling.

In a gaming store – I see your point. I have not run into this - there is only one gaming store I go to though.

Ghostwind said:
As a retail buyer, I expect my distributor to have at least a passing familiarity with the products they offer. Do you know that almost no one in the sales staff for the largest US games distributor plays games at all? Wouldn't you think that as a company that specializes in selling games, you would require your employees to become knowledgeable on the subject?

Well yes I would actually – at the very least the marketing points such as age brackets for games, the styles involved (Eberron vs. Forgotten Realms vs. Greyhawk – WoTC vs. Mongoose vs. Atlas etc.), supplements, etc. I guess they don’t take their business seriously enough; but it appears that since they are the largest they don’t need to – at the moment that is.

Ghostwind said:
Guess what? It is actively discouraged there. I know because I have several friends who work there and have been told point blank that knowing the games are not important, rather taking orders is.

I am sure it’s not really discouraged; more like considered irrelevant to the sales. A distributor is all about sales so I would not condemn them for that; but I would condemn them for the lack of knowledge. I am sure that if they have other sorts of things they deal with (like say computer hardware) those sales people know something and are required to know it. But then again there is probably a lot more competition with computer hardware distributors than game distributors; thus the lack of focus on the products being sold.

However if this “largest” distributor actually has serious competition out there I don’t see how he could possibly stay on top…unless of course everyone else is doing exactly as he is.

Ghostwind said:
Order takers and not salesmen.

That depends on the product and the market. They are really one in the same. But to your point a Salesmen has to actually SELL the product – as in making an effort to get someone to buy it (regardless of how much of an effort that is). As I alluded to above it seems that perhaps this company has no real competitors and thus they are the default people to go to; and thus management ignores the sales portion.

Ghostwind said:
It's all about the short term money and not a long term investment that will lead to more money.

That is true; but then again it is not the job nor the function of a distributor to develop the market. After all how many advertisements have you ever seen from distributors? But you see them from the manufacturers and the retail outlets. Thus if the latter two do a bad job…


Ghostwind said:
A significant percentage of gaming shops in the U.S. are owned by the hobby enthusiast, not the individual who is out to run the store like a business. The hobbyist stocks his favorite games and uses the store as a means to get his personal gaming stuff at retail cost (usually between 45-50% MSRP). When he places an order for product with his distributor, most likely he grabs his copy of GameTrade Magazine and orders directly from it, buying whatever looks good and relying that his sales rep will guide him on the hot ticket items. The sales rep isn't really a sales rep though. He's an order taker. He is relying that the retailer already knows the product and is ordering exactly what he needs to be successful and pay his bills. Whereas the individual who runs the store like a business looks at market research, his current budget, makes informed decisions, and orders based on what sells in his store. He already knows that it is his responsibility to know his product and his customers so he doesn't rely upon his sales rep to pad his order. He already has everything covered. He is also a very rare commodity in the world of retail gaming.

And thus you see – the market is backwards here – not to mention that there is really little chance that a sales rep will know anywhere near as much as the store owner - thus I definitely see the lack of need for the sales reps to know what they are selling – that is given what the distribution market looks like.

Ghostwind said:
This is one reason why I have been a vocal proponent for the average gamer to be more active with their LGS and tell them specifically what products they want to see on their shelves and then follow through by making those purchases at the store. The decline in sales of RPGs isn't because gamers aren't buying. If that were the case, Gen Con would have been a miserable year instead of most manufacturers having stellar sales. The problem lies in a breakdown somewhere in the distribution to retail side of things.

One question here; when people keep talking about sales being down are they talking about dollars, units or both? With places like Amazon selling WoTC products at 35-40% off and they can buy in such huge bulk to get deep discounts at the wholesale level - I can see where perhaps dollar sales are down whilst unit sales are up.

Ghostwind said:
One last thing, if Hasbro were to sell the D&D brand, it would be sold for no less than $30 million dollars (that figure comes from more than one persons who used to work for Wotc and were in positions to know and understand how much it would take). There are few companies that can bankroll that kind of money that would be able to effectively manage the brand and not cause more damage than has already been done. When I look at gaming companies that could even remotely do it based on sales trends and past history of growth, the only gaming company that could even be considered might be Mongoose (in about 5-10 years) assuming their rate of growth remains a constant upward curve. All others would fall way short of the mark.

You are forgetting something here – Hasbro is a game/toy company – they jumped into the RPG business to expand their product lines (especially in older youth and the adult segments). So are several others such as Mattel, Fisher Price, Kenner, etc. These guys and others like them have the cash at hand to do this just as Hasbro did. – I am almost certain the first two I mentioned do.

30 million actually seems kind of low to me…but hey I ain’t an expert at the RPG business just using their products! :-)
 
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johnsemlak said:
...which, if you are a gamer in a group where the DM has all the necessary materials, like mine, may be absolutely nothing. Several players in my group don't even have PHBs

Ditto.
 

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