D&D 4E 4E: The day the game ate the roleplayer?

The earliest games I remember playing a lot were:

-The Dig (I consider it one of the greatest games ever)

-Indiana Jones and The Infernal Machine

-Sam and Max: Hits the Road

-Red Baron

-Sopwith

-Dark Forces

-A FPS Viking Game, similar to Wolfenstein in graphics, but I cannot remember the name. All I can remember are green walls, I was wielding a axe, running through invisible doorways and facing glowing skulls.
 

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Derro said:
I just lament the death of narrativism in D&D.
4e looks like the most narrativist-friendly version of D&D (assuming "narrativism" is being used in the Forge sense of the word). It provides rules which are clearly not about determining the story via a mechanical modelling of ingame causality, but rather are about providing a framework on which players and GMs can hang the stories that they want to tell.

And mechanics that actively get in the way of that (like the alignment system) have been dropped. As have world-building assumptions that deprotagonise players (see the sidebar on p 22 of W&M).

noretoc said:
The fact that now there are rules that govern what a social encounter is and is not, makes me dislike the direction even more.
I think most people's experience is that social encounter mechanics in an RPG promote rather than hinder play that involves non-violent options. By all accounts of the new skill-challenge mechanics, they will really facilitate players' engagement with the game and participation in the telling of the story (eg because players can participate in setting the stakes, and in choosing what sort of ability - athletics, diplomacy, etc - is relevant to the resolution of the challenge at hand).

Celtavian said:
when DnD first game out it was designed for readers. People who enjoyed reading fantasy books and medieval history and wanted to play a game that allowed them to participate in a story. The game has evolved into a game that more designed for video game players and TV watchers of anime/fantasy series. Thus you can see the mechanics are more in line with what a video game player or anime watcher would envision for a character.
Contentions like this strike me as bizzare! I am not a video or computer game player, but I have seen them being played. And (as far as I can tell) the mechanics of those games seem to be intended to model ingame causal relationships (ie they are high-concept simulationism, if I can use Forge terminology, or use that sort of simulationism as a chassis for an overall gamist experience).

But the action resolution mechanics of 4e are so obviously not intended to be interpreted in a simulationist fashion, they look (to me) nothing like video game mechanics. They are to support story telling (perhaps mostly lowbrow stories, but that's D&D for you!).

I am not a video game player, but 4e (from all that I have seen) is far and away the most attractive version of D&D to me, because it promotes rather than hinders player protagonism, and thus roleplaying (in one important sense of that word).
 


Kitsune said:
Fine for a game, bad for a roleplaying game. Why? Shouldn't a real roleplayer be able to roleplay no matter what the game mechanics are? Yes, but if you go around telling people that you're the exiled son of a prince who had to live on the harsh back streets of a city of druids and assassinates people with secrets you learned from the trees themselves, you'll look a bit stupid in the first fight when your abilities are distinctly un-treeish.

A lot of that is why I usually don't feel my PC's really 'start' until about fourth level.

I'm not sure that what you're asking for is possible without world-building and house-ruling on the GM's part; the rules shouldn't really be handling this sort of thing. I don't really see how it's substancially different from me saying in 1E, 2E or 3E that my magic-user grew up in a community of druids and so now his spells have a 'forest-like' component to them: instead of Magic Missle, it's Magic Mistletoe, etc. I can certainly say that - indeed we see certain worlds built that way - but there's not a single shred of support for it in the rules of any edition to date. That's the job of the GM, to take the rulebook and make it useful for his vision of his world.

In regards to my first sentence, what I'd do for this character later in the game is to give him at least one level of druid to simulate his knowledge and abilities but that still requires an agreement between me and my GM as to the nature of some of my magic.

Another reason not to let roleplaying rule the roost in the main core rulebook is that 'real roleplayers' have their own dark mirror of the rules lawyer. A simple fact of life is that all backgrounds and roleplaying-based ideas are not created equal, and for a game there should at least be some notion of parity. Balance, if you will. I should expect that the fighter, the wizard and the warlord all come to the table with roughly the same capabilities. If there is a clear and obvious power imbalance in the game rules for, say, the fighter then sooner or later I'm going to wind up with an all-fighter party.

Similarly, there are some roleplayers that are so good at coming up with detail and justifications for a background that if they were to be able to do those things within the context of the game and have those things dictate their abilities, they'd soon rule that game and everyone else would get frustrated.

For example, if I come up with a character - Jon- whose concept is that he's a military scout. That basically makes me a fighter/rogue right off the bat. It is a good solid concept rife with roleplaying possibilities and it's right and good that Jon should be equally good at fighting and sneaking around. I don't know how that's going to fly, though, since now Tom the street urchin rogue is looking kinda pale in comparison. Yes, I can play and fiddle with concept and such but it remains that the rules of any edition of D&D simply don't handle that situation without either some severe tweaking on the DM's part or serious grumbling at the table from the other players.

Heck, you can break that sort of system just by saying 'My character is 30' instead of the default callow youth. Gimme my 20 points worth of knowledge skills, access to a couple of special feats that represent what I've learned in 15 years of knocking around a dangerous world. etc etc.
 

noretoc said:
/snip

I'm not saying that WOTC is making a bad decision. The young video gamer type is the demographic they want. There is lots of money there. I am sure the game will be successful, but it will not be the kind of game that I want to play. If I wanted super powers, I could go play MARVEL. The people they are looking to bring in the game want excitement, and action. There are times where I want that too, but I choose a game made for that. If I was to have great shootout, I play cyberpunk. When we want to blow things up, Battletech. I play D&D for the ability to play in an imersive world, that makes sense in it's own context. When I hit my players with a guy that can run up walls ans shoot laser beams out of his eyes, and then teleport behind the fighter and backstab him, I want them to say WTF?? Not.. "darn, I should have taken sense teleport, and hover...".

For any of you that played on NWN servers. You will recognize the type pf player this brings in. The kind that hunt and hunt until they get really high, and then talk to eachother in "role=play speech" until something else comes along to kill. That is what I think this version will come to. We will see for sure, but all of the cards are in place for it to happen. MAybe I'm just too old fashioned.

Gack. When are people going to learn that the average age of a MMORPG gamer is 26? And, half of them are female?

D&D, by contrast, averages about five or six years younger and almost entirely male.

So, which hobby is for kids?

If WOTC can plug into the same demographics that WOW has managed to garner, that is a MASSIVE shift upwards for D&D, not downwards.
 

Hussar said:
Gack. When are people going to learn that the average age of a MMORPG gamer is 26? And, half of them are female?

D&D, by contrast, averages about five or six years younger and almost entirely male.

Where did you get your stats? I'd bet the average D&D player is several years older than that, I'd say 30ish at least.
 

I have no stats on age. However, I do know that as I get older, more and more of my friends have difficulty committing to regular gaming sessions, what with kids to take care of and the like. None of them have trouble with MMORPG playing, as that can happen any time day or night, and at home with no warning.
This site is skewed significantly older, and there are still a lot of older RPG gamers out there (I regularly game with people in their 50s), but the obnoxious teen MMORPG player, while a stereotype, isn't necessarily accurate.
Just saying.

--Penn
 


Zweischneid said:
No. They are not!

I'd be interested to see why you'd think not? You can engage in roleplaying with any system at all, from Risus to Powers and Perils (from the least complex to the most complex systems I know about). I'm not sure how the rules system, or lack of one, could change the basics of roleplaying.
 

JRRNeiklot said:
Where did you get your stats? I'd bet the average D&D player is several years older than that, I'd say 30ish at least.

Ahh, man, my Dragon magazines are ALL the way on the other side of the room and I'm too lazy to go paw through them to find the right issue. Needless to say, a couple of years ago, Dragon published the results of their reader poll and compared it to a similar poll a few years previously. Their latest poll showed Dragon readers to be about 22 years old, and about 5 % female.

A quick Google search turned up this which certainly follows with the gender roles. And, mostly follows, at least from WOTC's market research, the age of gamers as well.

Take it all with a grain of salt of course. The point is, D&D gamers are not the greying greybeards that a lot of people seem to think. And MMORPG gamers are not all children either.
 

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