D&D 4E 4E: The day the game ate the roleplayer?

[Calico_Jack73]

I got an image in my mind's eye, a video game first-person shooter with a 4E wizard pew-pewing out Magic Missiles as fast as the player could click, with the number of health surges remaining to him listed in the upper corner of the screen like health packs. Eventually a bar at the bottom of the screen will fill and he can do a fireball.[/I]

Kinda reminds me of Hexen and Hexen 2 in a way. :\

 

[Doug McCrae]

D&D has always pulled in ideas from all over the place to craft something distinct from its sources. That was true in 1974 and it's true today.

The original game was very different from its source material in many ways. Most fiction has a single protagonist plus sidekick and romantic interest. There are very few clerics and thieves in fantasy fiction. Precious few hero wizards too. 90% or more of protagonists would be fighters imo. Vancian magic and the arcane/divine split, very distinctive features of D&D aren't 'fantasy tropes' but were ripped from specific fictional works. I can't think of any fantasy novel in which the heroes kill as many and as diverse a selection of foes as they do in a typical D&D dungeon bash.

And this was always a good move. The demands of an rpg are quite different from the demands of fiction. The balance between the classes is a good example of this. It's obvious D&D always tried to be balanced (in the sense of each class having a different but equally valuable contribution to make to mission success) but didn't quite manage it. The wizard was supposed to start off weak but become uber by campaign's end. This idea was problematic because it forced campaigns to run to a particular point, ending no sooner or later, or the balnce would be off. Vancian magic led to strong pressure for a 15min day and if this happened the fighter never got a chance to be best. The cleric had an important niche - healing magic - but no one wanted to play one. Later classes like the thief didn't have enough niche left by the mighty wizard who could duplicate all the abilities of the late-comer.

These are some of the balance problems 4e seeks to fix. And of course they wouldn't be problems in fiction. But rpgs *aren't* fiction. They are a blend of all sorts of diverse elements. WotC's market research shows players need all the different parts to be in place for an enjoyable game - story, yes, but also tactical challenge and an increase in complexity as you go up levels.

Given the succes of WoW and its tremendous similarity to D&D, the designers would be crazy not to look at it and steal anything that can be successfully transferred to the ttrpg medium. That doesn't mean 4e is based on videogames, any more than it means 1970s D&D was based on comic books cause they stole Swamp Thing to be a shambling mound.

 

[noretoc]

By staying out of the way. 3E stays out of the way. What has been shown of 4e gets in the way. Maybe that is just for me and not for you but for me it more than just a little bit.
The claim that started this line of conversation was that RP rewards were a new addition in 4E. That is not true. Now it may be true that 4E tries to claim that RP rewards can now be looked up on a table. And if they have reduced the RP concept down to something that cut and dry, then that is just another strike against it for me.

Me too. The fact that now there are rules that govern what a social encounter is and is not, makes me dislike the direction even more. The whole 4th ed mindset is going to be about the cool abilities, the cool powers, the things you can to with them. How you can use them to kill the bad guys. How you can make a roll and talk the orc into leaving you alone.
DM: What do you say?
Player: My character has the feat smooth talker, he knows what to say. Rolls dice... 20! I do it.

grr

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Honestly I cannot see that happening, games like WoD have always had rules governing a variety of things including social interaction, but it hasn't made it so players simply roll.

They act out what they need to act out, and roll and, the DM then acts out accordingly given what is rolled, and generally these rolls work quite well since you assume that someone with high-diplomacy would roll better then someone with low.

It simply gives a frame, and a method to the madness so too speak. This is ESPECIALLY important when it is with a heated social encounter that could go away, it helps the DM from either overly favouring the PCs or NPCs.

 

[Henry]

...How you can make a roll and talk the orc into leaving you alone.
DM: What do you say?
Player: My character has the feat smooth talker, he knows what to say. Rolls dice... 20! I do it.

grr

The thing that gives me hope, is that Mearls' description in a podcast about three months ago was very different than that. It was more of a combination of roleplaying, and give and take on the dice rolls. It almost reminds me of players who spout a battle cry, roll a die, and then the DM tells them what the result means. What this would look like:

P1: Excuse me, goodman Tom, I don't suppose you'd know where to get a sword dweomered up, would you? (to DM) roll's a 19.
DM: "G'day, sire, and I might, but times are tough, and my memory's so harried, with my daughter needing the medicine and all..." (rolls a bluff check, notes it reduces player's total)
P2: "I'll threaten him subtly my standing near him and giving him the stink-eye like I don't believe a word of it." (to DM) Intimidate's a 20.
DM: (notes that Intimidate raised P1's die result back up a bit) "...perhaps I might know, after all.."

etc.

 

[noretoc]

Yes, and I can see that type of thing working in my games too, but here is the troubling part. The rest of the game, does not lend itself to that type of player. It is building itself to be a game where cool people do cooler stuff with cooler powers. When you attract that type of player (the video gamer of today) then all else will fall to the wayside.

I'm not saying that WOTC is making a bad decision. The young video gamer type is the demographic they want. There is lots of money there. I am sure the game will be successful, but it will not be the kind of game that I want to play. If I wanted super powers, I could go play MARVEL. The people they are looking to bring in the game want excitement, and action. There are times where I want that too, but I choose a game made for that. If I was to have great shootout, I play cyberpunk. When we want to blow things up, Battletech. I play D&D for the ability to play in an imersive world, that makes sense in it's own context. When I hit my players with a guy that can run up walls ans shoot laser beams out of his eyes, and then teleport behind the fighter and backstab him, I want them to say WTF?? Not.. "darn, I should have taken sense teleport, and hover...".

For any of you that played on NWN servers. You will recognize the type pf player this brings in. The kind that hunt and hunt until they get really high, and then talk to eachother in "role=play speech" until something else comes along to kill. That is what I think this version will come to. We will see for sure, but all of the cards are in place for it to happen. MAybe I'm just too old fashioned.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Well if your group doesn't run that way then you have nothing to worry about.

Honestly, that is all there is too it. Just don't worry about how others play the game, just play it as how you wish to play it.

 

[noretoc]

Well if your group doesn't run that way then you have nothing to worry about.

Honestly, that is all there is too it. Just don't worry about how others play the game, just play it as how you wish to play it.

True, and I don't worry about my game. If I don't change, I will still have a blast, but my thoughts on where the hobby is headed is that I agree with the original poster. I'm not here to complain about MY game, I'm here to offer my thoughts on this topic.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Yes, and I can see that type of thing working in my games too, but here is the troubling part. The rest of the game, does not lend itself to that type of player. It is building itself to be a game where cool people do cooler stuff with cooler powers. When you attract that type of player (the video gamer of today) then all else will fall to the wayside.

I'm not saying that WOTC is making a bad decision. The young video gamer type is the demographic they want.

People keep saying this. They also keep saying it like there's something wrong with young video gamers. However, I'm not a young video gamer, and I like most of what I've seen (although why do the monsters have no fluff text?!). And there are lots of old roleplayers on here besides me who also like what they see. As well, WotC's stated goal is to get existing players on board first, and then go after a new customer base. They're not writing this game for some hypothetical anime-watching video-gamer with a 20 second attention span, an iPod full of Hannah Montana, and a pile of older-edition books for use as toilet paper.

As far as I can tell, they're writing this game for Wormwood, and the rest of us will be pleased to the extent that we agree with his gaming sensibilities.

 

[Incenjucar]

....Since when does a Mage or a Cleric or a Barbarian or a Ranger or a Druid or a Bard or a halfling who can bend bars/lift gates not have superpowers...?

And just so you know, I play video games. Most of us probably play video games. We're GAMERS. WE PLAY GAMES.