Shadowdark Finally Played Shadowdark
- Thread starter Retreater
- Start date
Right, I found that OSE didn't match my expectations of old school play, but I was hopeful that another branch of the OSR might.
Maybe (if anyone cares) I can explain what my nostalgia was, and maybe that will inform the disconnect I have with Shadowdark and other games. If nothing else, it can show people coming here for a player's review of the system that I am an outlier, apparently.
I got into AD&D in the late 80s, post Hickman Revolution. I never played Basic/BX/AD&D1. Gygax was out of TSR. My experience was shaped by Ravenloft, Forgotten Realms, and Dark Sun.
We didn't have large dungeons, ever. Most would fit the design of today's 5 Room Dungeons. XP was rewarded, not for finding gold, but from using your character's abilities to solve problems. Thieves were awarded for using their skills, clerics and wizards for casting their spells, fighters for fighting enemies, etc.
Our sessions were spent uncovering political intrigues, solving urban mysteries, surviving harsh environments. Rarely did we face hordes of goblins. We would do something like go into a crypt, lure out the zombie minions, then sneak past them and take out the necromancer controlling them.
If we played wrong, it's because we were an isolated group in a small town in the South during the Satanic Panic. We did play a number of the adventures during that era, but they weren't like the modern OSR.
Even looking at an older adventure like The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, you can see how that is more investigative and concerned with thematic pacing than something like Keep on the Borderlands. I think that demonstrates the difference between how I played and how the OSR has developed.
Mannahnin
Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
I don't think you played "wrong". I think NN identified correctly that you played AD&D in more Trad style, as opposed to most OSR being focused on Classic or a somewhat revisionist "new" OSR style of its own.
Six Cultures of Play
A blog about roleplaying games and theory focused on Mythras, Dungeons and Dragons, and OSR games.
retiredadventurer.blogspot.com
Shadowdark does have a strong focus on dungeon play at base, especially stuff like the light rules. I think it more naturally lends itself to Classic play than to Trad, as with most OSR systems.
That's not to say that's the ONLY thing it can do. The new Kickstarter is a big overland hex crawl setting, after all. It does also have more forgiving rules for going to 0HP and surviving than any TSR edition.
Though in my experience in the 80s-90s period we're talking about, many Trad tables used a simple "death at -10HP, bleed at 1HP per round" house rule*, which tends to make it very unlikely for a character to die from simple damage until higher levels, because low level monsters are mostly incapable of doing 11+ points in a single round. Combine that with not targeting downed PCs, and a little fudging behind the screen to help ensure that you don't drop the whole party at once... And you get a recipe for PC death being relatively rare despite how the RAW TSR D&D rules make it really easy. If you were to return to 2E AD&D, I think you'll probably want to use some kind of death mitigation mechanic like this house rule.
*(There is an official Optional Rule called Hovering on Death's Door on page 75 of the 2E DMG which is similar, but I'm talking about a house rule which further softened it. By the book optional rule, if you hit zero or less the shock incapacitates you and automatically wipes all spells from your mind. Magical healing can only bring you to 1HP and conscious but incapable of action and barely able to move or talk, until you get a full day of rest or a Heal spell. But at the more action-focused tables I played at, we normally ignored all those lingering effects, as became standard in subsequent editions).
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SpellObjectEnthusiast
Adventurer
This sounds miserable regardless of system or edition of the game.
Mannahnin
Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
Indeed. The OP did specify that one of those GMs had never played or run the game before, tbf, and the other was a two hour slot described as lackluster rather than awful, but if it was a monster hotel with no negotiation, it wasn't being run by the book either.
The home game also evidently skipped reaction rolls, which are a key element both of Shadowdark and of B/X, which The Lost City was designed for.
Yes. And this wasn't one of the convention games. It was being run by a GM who had been a player in my group going back to the AD&D 2E era. He has been running an ongoing Castles & Crusades campaign for about 2.5 years at this point. I don't know why he ran the encounters the way he did - causing us to have 3 TPKs in his single session.
We were talking last night and he said the lethality was because he was running it "by the book."
Also - in the wisdom of that GM - he wanted to "skip to the good parts." This meant avoiding all the faction play on the upper tiers and just putting us in the dungeon, with no support from the factions, no knowledge of what was below, etc.
He's a great friend, but he did a bad job with this one.
SpellObjectEnthusiast
Adventurer
I think the modern OSR is not built to deliver you this kind of experience. While you certainly CAN do this in OSR games with lots of houserules, its not a good starting spot.
Your best bet would be systems/adventures designed for trad play - either just actually playing 2e AD&D, or trying something like BRP/Runequest Classic, West End Games's D6, FUDGE, Dragonbane, or even Savage Worlds.
You'd be best served by a skills-first game with more of a focus on simulation, and less on empowering GM fiat.
Since I’ve been told I’ve been judging Arcane Library’s Shadowdark adventures unfairly, I’m doing a quick read through of “Fortress of the Burning Brothers,” from Cursed Scroll 2 and sharing my thoughts. There will be spoilers. This is obviously not a review, since I haven’t played it. I’m just looking to see if the writing would facilitate the “combat as fail state” design Shadowdark is known for.
First, it’s a 4-6th level adventure. Higher level than my two convention games (which were 3rd level). The home game I played, I think went to 5th, so I have at least some idea of the power level of the characters. It’s not 1st level, so I will assume the party has some experience and abilities to face the challenges herein.
I did a slight back tracking to the Hex portion of the zine. I skimmed the Djurum overworld section to see if there was any mention of the Fortress. If there was a quest, adventure seed, etc., that proposed the adventurers on a task of nonviolence – such as a diplomatic mission. I didn’t see any mention of the Fortress in my quick scan, but I could’ve missed it.
Iron Fortress Section
Random encounters (50% seem that combat is a likely outcome)
1 – Likely not a combat. The salamanders are completing another task.
2 – Likely not a combat. The disguised creature is trying to get information.
3 – Probably a combat.
4 - Probably a combat.
5 – Likely not a combat. They have a different purpose.
6 - Probably a combat.
Depending on how you interpret the salamanders determines how dangerous and enemy-filled this dungeon section is. My interpretation is that they are described as “militant” and “ruthlessly loyal” to the efreeti. I’m going to consider that they are not going to be especially susceptible to bribes or flattery – though they can still break with morale checks.
The party will likely be spotted by the guards at the entrance towers (assuming here that someone is going to fail a DC 15 Dex check). After that, the Fortress is on alert, and the group will likely be captured and brought before the leader. Assuming they get past the guard towers, they need DC 12 Dex checks to continue hiding in the fortress.
I’m going to count through the 19 Areas in the Fortress section to see which are probable combats – assuming that the entire party can’t make that DC 12 Dex check.)
1. Guards. Yes, probable combat.
2. Guards. Yes, probable combat.
3. Guards. Yes, probable combat.
4. Not necessarily combat. But because of the likelihood of random encounters in the area, it's likely. Not a safe place to regroup, plan, etc.
5. Guards – but 50% chance that there’s a 50% chance that the group can sneak past them because they might be distracted.
6. I’m going to say this is not combat. There’s a 50% chance of an enemy being in here, but that enemy will be vulnerable to an assassination attempt, resulting in no combat.
7. I’m going to say no combat. It can be avoided easily.
8. Enemy throne room. Probably combat – but see below.
9. Guards. Probably combat.
10. Likely not combat.
11. Guards. Yes, probable combat.
12. Guards. Yes, probable combat.
13. Not combat. Exploration
14. Not combat. Roleplay.
15. Not combat. Roleplay.
16. Guards. Yes, probable combat.
17. Guards. Yes, probable combat.
18. Likely not combat.
19. Exploration.
So, of the 19 Areas in the Fortress section, I am saying that 10 are probable combat encounters, greater than 50%.
I think Area 8 is a TPK if they choose to fight the Efreet and his bodyguards. If they side with him, they might get a pass for this entire portion of the dungeon. The entirety of this portion of the adventure depends on the salamanders doing knockout/nonlethal attacks to the characters, trying to take them as prisoners (which is their motivation). Does Shadowdark even support nonlethal combat?
But they have a way out, by siding with the Efreet lord to kill his rival in the second half of the adventure.
Mines section
First, it’s easier to sneak here (DC 9 Dex compared to DC 12 Dex in the Fortress). (Granted, that’s still not the best odds because you’ll probably have someone with a Dex penalty or heavily armored with disadvantage to sneak or something.)
I count 2 out of the 6 random encounters as being likely combats (so 33%). Another might be able to be avoided – but would be a combat if it’s not avoided.
We notice here that the duergar are going to try to capture the party instead of killing them (just like upstairs in the Fortress).
20. Duergar. Yes, probable combat.
21. Hellhounds. Yes, probable combat.
22. Boss man. Yes, probable combat (or see below).
23. Duergar. Yes, probable combat.
24. Exploration.
25. Roleplay
26. Exploration.
27. Easily avoidable fight.
28. Probable combat.
29. Exploration
30. Not a likely fight.
31. Not necessarily combat. But because of the likelihood of random encounters in this area, it’s somewhat likely. It’s certainly not a safe place to regroup, plan, strategize, etc.
32. Duergar. Yes, probable combat.
33. Duergar. Yes, probable combat.
34. Duergar. Yes, probable combat.
35. Exploration – and a cool way to turn the duergar to your side if you can find it.
So, of the 16 Areas in the Mines section, I am saying that 8 are probable combat encounters, 50%.
I think Area 22 is a tough fight if they choose to fight the Efreet spellcaster. If they side with him, they might get a pass for this entire portion of the dungeon. The entirety of this portion of the adventure depends on the duergar doing knockout/nonlethal attacks to the characters, trying to take them as prisoners. Between the two sections, I think it’s more likely to take out the duergar minions than the salamanders, who seem better organized.
It seems like the course of the adventure is – approach the Fortress. Get spotted. Get captured. Hear the efreet’s pitch. Agree to help him kill his brother. Go into the mines. Get captured. Hear that efreet’s pitch. Agree to help him kill his brother. Heal under the protection of the efreet. Backstab one of the brothers to get the reward.
So the adventure is combat-focused, the enemies are trying to capture (not kill you). Whether or not that is likely depends on if your group would rather die than get captured (which is a usual occurrence for my groups).
What else would I like? Maybe a tad more variety in the enemies/factions? Like, have a room that the groups don’t know about or avoid. Throw in one room of undead or monstrous centipedes or something. Have an adventure seed where one of the efreeti actually request the aid of adventurers so you don’t think you’re just going to TPK in the first room.
Overall, this one shows that Shadowdark’s survivability requires a GM to pull their punches. “All the enemies want to capture you – so they only do nonlethal damage.” This adventure would be a bloodbath otherwise. You’d have someone fail that Dex 15 Dex check to sneak to the guard tower. The brass gong is rung, and 12 salamanders shoot arrows at you. Granted, the salamanders would be unlikely to kill the entire party (+2 to hit, 1d8 damage with bows), but if the party didn’t flee, the numbers would probably overwhelm the party. Also, the party is at DISADV to hit the salamanders because of the tower crenellations.
Fighting the salamanders in melee would be even worse. If you fail the DC 12 Dex check in the courtyard, the alarm is tripped and you’re facing 13 salamanders with 2 attacks each and heat auras, as well as the dozen archers. That’s when you’ll probably have a TPK.
Except they’re just taking you as prisoners.
First, it’s a 4-6th level adventure. Higher level than my two convention games (which were 3rd level). The home game I played, I think went to 5th, so I have at least some idea of the power level of the characters. It’s not 1st level, so I will assume the party has some experience and abilities to face the challenges herein.
I did a slight back tracking to the Hex portion of the zine. I skimmed the Djurum overworld section to see if there was any mention of the Fortress. If there was a quest, adventure seed, etc., that proposed the adventurers on a task of nonviolence – such as a diplomatic mission. I didn’t see any mention of the Fortress in my quick scan, but I could’ve missed it.
Iron Fortress Section
Random encounters (50% seem that combat is a likely outcome)
1 – Likely not a combat. The salamanders are completing another task.
2 – Likely not a combat. The disguised creature is trying to get information.
3 – Probably a combat.
4 - Probably a combat.
5 – Likely not a combat. They have a different purpose.
6 - Probably a combat.
Depending on how you interpret the salamanders determines how dangerous and enemy-filled this dungeon section is. My interpretation is that they are described as “militant” and “ruthlessly loyal” to the efreeti. I’m going to consider that they are not going to be especially susceptible to bribes or flattery – though they can still break with morale checks.
The party will likely be spotted by the guards at the entrance towers (assuming here that someone is going to fail a DC 15 Dex check). After that, the Fortress is on alert, and the group will likely be captured and brought before the leader. Assuming they get past the guard towers, they need DC 12 Dex checks to continue hiding in the fortress.
I’m going to count through the 19 Areas in the Fortress section to see which are probable combats – assuming that the entire party can’t make that DC 12 Dex check.)
1. Guards. Yes, probable combat.
2. Guards. Yes, probable combat.
3. Guards. Yes, probable combat.
4. Not necessarily combat. But because of the likelihood of random encounters in the area, it's likely. Not a safe place to regroup, plan, etc.
5. Guards – but 50% chance that there’s a 50% chance that the group can sneak past them because they might be distracted.
6. I’m going to say this is not combat. There’s a 50% chance of an enemy being in here, but that enemy will be vulnerable to an assassination attempt, resulting in no combat.
7. I’m going to say no combat. It can be avoided easily.
8. Enemy throne room. Probably combat – but see below.
9. Guards. Probably combat.
10. Likely not combat.
11. Guards. Yes, probable combat.
12. Guards. Yes, probable combat.
13. Not combat. Exploration
14. Not combat. Roleplay.
15. Not combat. Roleplay.
16. Guards. Yes, probable combat.
17. Guards. Yes, probable combat.
18. Likely not combat.
19. Exploration.
So, of the 19 Areas in the Fortress section, I am saying that 10 are probable combat encounters, greater than 50%.
I think Area 8 is a TPK if they choose to fight the Efreet and his bodyguards. If they side with him, they might get a pass for this entire portion of the dungeon. The entirety of this portion of the adventure depends on the salamanders doing knockout/nonlethal attacks to the characters, trying to take them as prisoners (which is their motivation). Does Shadowdark even support nonlethal combat?
But they have a way out, by siding with the Efreet lord to kill his rival in the second half of the adventure.
Mines section
First, it’s easier to sneak here (DC 9 Dex compared to DC 12 Dex in the Fortress). (Granted, that’s still not the best odds because you’ll probably have someone with a Dex penalty or heavily armored with disadvantage to sneak or something.)
I count 2 out of the 6 random encounters as being likely combats (so 33%). Another might be able to be avoided – but would be a combat if it’s not avoided.
We notice here that the duergar are going to try to capture the party instead of killing them (just like upstairs in the Fortress).
20. Duergar. Yes, probable combat.
21. Hellhounds. Yes, probable combat.
22. Boss man. Yes, probable combat (or see below).
23. Duergar. Yes, probable combat.
24. Exploration.
25. Roleplay
26. Exploration.
27. Easily avoidable fight.
28. Probable combat.
29. Exploration
30. Not a likely fight.
31. Not necessarily combat. But because of the likelihood of random encounters in this area, it’s somewhat likely. It’s certainly not a safe place to regroup, plan, strategize, etc.
32. Duergar. Yes, probable combat.
33. Duergar. Yes, probable combat.
34. Duergar. Yes, probable combat.
35. Exploration – and a cool way to turn the duergar to your side if you can find it.
So, of the 16 Areas in the Mines section, I am saying that 8 are probable combat encounters, 50%.
I think Area 22 is a tough fight if they choose to fight the Efreet spellcaster. If they side with him, they might get a pass for this entire portion of the dungeon. The entirety of this portion of the adventure depends on the duergar doing knockout/nonlethal attacks to the characters, trying to take them as prisoners. Between the two sections, I think it’s more likely to take out the duergar minions than the salamanders, who seem better organized.
It seems like the course of the adventure is – approach the Fortress. Get spotted. Get captured. Hear the efreet’s pitch. Agree to help him kill his brother. Go into the mines. Get captured. Hear that efreet’s pitch. Agree to help him kill his brother. Heal under the protection of the efreet. Backstab one of the brothers to get the reward.
So the adventure is combat-focused, the enemies are trying to capture (not kill you). Whether or not that is likely depends on if your group would rather die than get captured (which is a usual occurrence for my groups).
What else would I like? Maybe a tad more variety in the enemies/factions? Like, have a room that the groups don’t know about or avoid. Throw in one room of undead or monstrous centipedes or something. Have an adventure seed where one of the efreeti actually request the aid of adventurers so you don’t think you’re just going to TPK in the first room.
Overall, this one shows that Shadowdark’s survivability requires a GM to pull their punches. “All the enemies want to capture you – so they only do nonlethal damage.” This adventure would be a bloodbath otherwise. You’d have someone fail that Dex 15 Dex check to sneak to the guard tower. The brass gong is rung, and 12 salamanders shoot arrows at you. Granted, the salamanders would be unlikely to kill the entire party (+2 to hit, 1d8 damage with bows), but if the party didn’t flee, the numbers would probably overwhelm the party. Also, the party is at DISADV to hit the salamanders because of the tower crenellations.
Fighting the salamanders in melee would be even worse. If you fail the DC 12 Dex check in the courtyard, the alarm is tripped and you’re facing 13 salamanders with 2 attacks each and heat auras, as well as the dozen archers. That’s when you’ll probably have a TPK.
Except they’re just taking you as prisoners.
