Once per day non-magical effects destroy suspension of disbelief

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Maybe accessing martial/non-magical dailies on a natural 20 plus maybe a lowering of the number per X number of levels. Maybe this could improve by -1 per six character levels to reflect increased skill and/or inner power depending on the daily in question. At 6th level a 19+, at 12th level 18+, at 18th level 17+, at 24th level 16+ and finally at 30th level a roll of 15+.

This could work quite nicely I think. I have no if this would unbalance things, but I like the look of it. I can't believe I didn't consider this option.

If you try this, post how it works out.

 

[Fifth Element]

to the ideas that armor makes you harder to hit (rather than damage)

I feel compelled to reply to this every time I see it.

Armour does make you harder to hit. Just stop thinking of a miss as "nothing but air". Hitting someone's armour, without penetrating it and actually causing damage to the person, is also a "miss". If the armour stops a blow that would have otherwise hit the wearer, that armour made the wearer harder to hit.

Take a fighter with a 10 Dex and wearing chainmail (+5 armour). His AC is therefore 15. If an opponent rolls 9 or less to hit, it is a complete miss, since it would have missed regardless. If an opponent rolls 10 to 14, he lands the blow but it is either deflected by the armour, or the armour absorbs the damage (since he would have hit on that roll if the armour were not there). If he rolls 15 or higher, he lands the blow and penetrates the armour, causing damage.

 

[jdrakeh]

Armour does make you harder to hit. Just stop thinking of a miss as "nothing but air". Hitting someone's armour, without penetrating it and actually causing damage to the person, is also a "miss". If the armour stops a blow that would have otherwise hit the wearer, that armour made the wearer harder to hit.

I'm aware of this rationale but it requires additional justification past what it present in the rules which is, frankly, indicative of it being at odds with a convincing simulation of reality.

 

[Puggins]

Daily Powers are a simple abstraction that make a ton of sense. In combat, certain maneuvers simply don't happen that often because it is difficult to set them up. Let me draw a comparison to one of my other loves- Mixed Martial Arts.

At-Wills Powers: Straight Right, Jab, Leg Kick, Takedown, Head Clinch

These abilities require very little to set up, and happen multiple times in the same fight. The opponent can defend against them, but doing so won't become easier as the fight wears on.

Encounter Powers: Arm Lock, Read Naked Choke, Head Kick

These abilities take quite a bit of set-up, but are reasonably common- a ton of MMA matches are settled by these maneuvers. Once you execute them, though, the opponent will find repeated attempts to be much easier to defend against. The read naked choke, for example, tires your arms out enough that a second attempt to apply it will stand less of a chance of success.

Daily Powers: Gogoplata, Omaplata, Kimura, Superman Punch, Spinning Reverse Punch

These are the maneuvers that you see only occasionally, because they require that the opponent is caught unawares in a very specific position at the same time that the attacker is aware that such a maneuver is executable. The MMA world talks about these for months afterwards if once of these ends a fight.

So.... what's the problem with dailies?

 

[billd91]

Or, to put it another way...

A: "Hey, why didn't that monster die when you cut his gut open to crawl out!"
B: "Because muscular action closes the hole."
A: "Huh? If I sliced a monster's gut open, he'd bleed to death on the floor."
B: "Yeah, but muscular action closes the hole. It's a universal law."

In most cases, it's just as flimsy as the excuse you use. Why can't a wizard cast magic missile more than once in a day? Does he get tired? Does he forget how? Does his mind need to rest? If so, why doesn't he lose CON or hit points? Or why doesn't he take a penalty on INT skills and checks until tomorrow?

The two above aren't issues in 4e, but are in 3e because of the metagame considerations. The reasons you use to justify them can be as flimsy or as complex and well-reasoned as you want them to be.

Actually, Henry, you're wrong about the magic missile bit. The wizard could cast magic missile all day, if he had prepared multiple castings of it, until he ran out of prepped spells. Not once a day. It did require preparation and that's the weird structure of the Vancian system... though that DID debut before D&D so it's not like it was entirely just a gamist system. It was adapted into a game because that made for an easy system to work with from a gamist perspective, but it was in the literature before it was in the game.

For my part in this, I expect most daily powers to imply some justification that a character needs to sleep to regain the use of it. For a low-level barbarian, fighting in an exhausting style works for me. There's only so many times you're gonna be able to do it.
But for martial exploits? I'm not seeing it. I can get behind encounter powers just fine. You make your special move and any opponents in that encounter space who witness it are now wise to your tricks - won't work again until you run into new people. But martial exploit daily powers don't work for me. If you can force the situation to be amenable to the daily power of your choice (once you've got multiple ones), why can't you do it or at least try it again?

I might be able to get behind a set of daily powers that have a per encounter reactivation check - something that indicates that the circumstances are right to use it again. That, I think, would do a better job of conveying what a martial exploit seems to be.

 

[hong]

I'm aware of this rationale but it requires additional justification past what it present in the rules which is, frankly, indicative of it being at odds with a convincing simulation of reality.

Eh, it's handwaving that people have somehow managed to accept for the last 30 years. It just goes to show that the only problem with per-day martials is the fact that they're new and shiny.

 

[Imaro]

That old chestnut about past editions of D&D paying verisimilitude heed is bunk. D&D has never fostered verisimilitude, from its assumptions that all inhabitants of the world had a PC class (an assumption not explicitly dumped until D&D 3x) or that all members of a given race possess identical attributes to the ideas that armor makes you harder to hit (rather than damage) or that physical health never declines but, rather, gets continually stronger as you age (ostensibly addressed in D&D 3x, but not satisfactorily so IMO).

People who actually want verisimilitude in RPGs have historically not played D&D for these and other reasons. The idea that, with the advent of D&D 4e, D&D is suddenly not a realistic physics engine is laughable at best and a deliberate strawman at worst. This isn't anything new and you'd have to knowingly ignore 30+ years of D&D trampling verisimiltude to death in order to believe it. That seems like a lot of work to me but, apparently, some people are that invested in not liking the new edition of the game.

I think the biggest fallacy in your argument is the "until 3.x part". I think correctly, or incorrectly, 3.x was looked at as an advancement towards more verisimilitude. To then say, that it is wrong for people to assume it should continue in that direction, or at least not regress is kind of weird.

As far as people who want verisimilitude not playing D&D... maybe these same people believed, from the previous edition that D&D was headed more in that direction. Personally, I thought that was one of the reasons they were (supposedly) removing the vancian magic system.

 

[Fifth Element]

And hey, I am not saying daily power aren't good for beer&pretzel rollplaying. But for us other players, weho might want some immersion, it hurts verisimilitude really bad.

To my mind, players who want more immersion tend to be very good at coming up with in-game explanation of mechanical effects. They really shouldn't have a problem with this.

Oh, and "rollplaying"? Very clever. Here's hoping it's a typo.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

Originally Posted by Whizbang Dustyboots
OK, so next question, how did you feel about the Book of 9 Swords magical-martial abilities?

I hated them with the fiery fury of 1000 suns as well... just so you know.



Wyrmshadows

 

[Fifth Element]

I'm aware of this rationale but it requires additional justification past what it present in the rules which is, frankly, indicative of it being at odds with a convincing simulation of reality.

What additional justification is required past what's in the rules? Per the rules, a "miss" just means no damage. I don't recall "miss" being defined as "nothing but air".

In the 3.5 PHB, it says "Your Armor Class (AC) represents how hard it is for your opponent to land a solid, damaging blow on you." Not just any blow, but a solid, damaging one.