Points of Light Killed the Campaign Setting...

[Weregrognard]

...at least it did for me. Don't get me wrong, I loves me my campaign settings. I probably have material for every major D&D campaign setting ever published and quite a few 3rd-party ones. Thing is, I'm really digging the PoL's micro-to macrocosm approach. I can't help but feel constrained by limiting my campaign to one setting and having to shoehorn adventures and material into it. It really has me thinking of campaign planning in new ways. So, for example, if I want to have a campaign where the PC's have to defend Ptolus, last bastion of the ancient empire from the hordes of the recently rebuilt Temple of Elemental Evil by the forces of Mordain the Flesh-Weaver and his diabolical second-in-command, Bargle, by questing for the Rod of Seven Parts then I will; with many apologies to setting/canon lovers

 

[Wyrmshadows]

POL is at best a regionalized phenomenon in a campaign setting

To each his own.

I enjoy fleshed out settings that I can alter to taste. IME its easier to cut away from that which exists than to create wholly that which does not. I am not referring to gigantic, sprawling settings like FR with so many iconic parts that removing too much just makes it something else. I am referring to less detailed settings like Goodman Games' little setting...I forget its name.

POL can be good but I like trade routes, history, nations, city states, national boundaries, political alliances, personalities (besides just the PCs), etc. IMC I would use the POL concept as a medieval dark ages of gritty, ignorant, dirty, paranoid, illiterate, xenophobic fantasy.

My own campaign setting has POL areas which IMO is how POL is best handled. POL only works broadly after a cataclysm, the fall of an empire, or some other large scale destruction of infrastructure. There are POL elements in every single published setting. During the European dark ages, both the Muslim nations and the Chinese had very high degrees of civilization. In fact it was the Muslim nations' high regard for learning that allowed the West to rediscover the classical thought of the Romans and Greeks after the passing of the dark ages.



Wyrmshadows

 

[Snoweel]

I can't help but feel constrained by limiting my campaign to one setting and having to shoehorn adventures and material into it.

How is this any more different under the default PoL setting than it was under 3e?

 

[Snoweel]

POL can be good but I like trade routes, history, nations, city states, national boundaries, political alliances, personalities (besides just the PCs), etc.

All this fits just fine into the PoL. It just means that the knowledge of and trust in all these elements is far less certain.

Example - the king of a nation might claim all the land within certain natural (or otherwise) boundaries. His arbitrary borders may even remain undisputed by any political entity on his borders. Or they may be in dispute by a neighbouring ruler.

But within the borders he has claimed, the settlements are still essentially points of light - any forest, any patch of hills or swamp or bog, are completely outisde of the reach of this king's justice.

The people who live in the regional villages and towns are essentially on their own - they might pay taxes but if there's any trouble from the nearby wilderness they better be able to hold out for the X number of days it will take to get word to the nearest garrison and react soldiers to the threat.

In fact it was the Muslim nations' high regard for learning that allowed the West to rediscover the classical thought of the Romans and Greeks after the passing of the dark ages.

That would explain why the Muslim nations are all so awesome.

Are you insinuating that it is now our responsibility to repay the favour?

 

[Cyronax]

Example - the king of a nation might claim all the land within certain natural (or otherwise) boundaries. His arbitrary borders may even remain undisputed by any political entity on his borders. Or they may be in dispute by a neighbouring ruler.
QUOTE]


That's the best way to use a small-to-large world concept. History and a sense of breadth are still possible, so long as the DM has a few ideas he's ready to implement during the session at short notice, as well as players who are willing to accept "and here lies a region to be detailed later."

It worked for Gygax. It works for me.

I have used both established or well defined settings as well as small-to-large styles. Both work, but the latter has always given the players the most buy-in due to the fact that I actively encouraged them to be really really creative in their backgrounds.

C.I.D.

 

[Psion]

I remember reading somewhere the outstanding advice that the best campaign settings are about change, and feature predominant good with evil on the rise, or predominant evil with good on the rise.

Points of light represents one of those good axioms, but only one.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

That would explain why the Muslim nations are all so awesome.

Are you insinuating that it is now our responsibility to repay the favour?

LOL

I swear the internet must be surfed by an endless stream of loonies whose dedicated mission in life is to cultivate their own inner outrage by misconstruing the most innocuous things.

Wow, just wow.

I mention the Muslim nations (along with the Chinese which you oddly enough didn't infer anything from) because the POL of the European dark ages was limited to Europe, thus my point that the POL theme is best considered a regional phenomenon as opposed to a global one. I find that in conversation it is useful to bring up recognizable real world parallels so as to highlight a point. Its a rhetorical technique that aids in understanding.

Man, I cannot believe you are capable of grasping a RPing game with your inability to grasp the written word. Repay the favor!?!?!? Muslim nations are so awesome?!?! What in jeebus' name are you taking about?!?!

And yeah, Muslim nations were pretty damn awesome during the European dark ages compared to much of the world including much of Europe at the time. Its sad that religious fanaticism and other factors has caused such ruin amongst once great civilizations but that is another discussion.


Wyrmshadows

 

[Wyrmshadows]

I remember reading somewhere the outstanding advice that the best campaign settings are about change, and feature predominant good with evil on the rise, or predominant evil with good on the rise.

Points of light represents one of those good axioms, but only one.

I think that the theme of change creates a dynamic setting that a DM/GM can develop and the PCs can strongly influence. IMO campaigns without a strong central idea of change become calcified, sterile and dead. With change comes conflict and all good drama is rooted in conflict.


Wyrmshadows

 

[Snoweel]

LOL

I swear the internet must be surfed by an endless stream of loonies whose dedicated mission in life is to cultivate their own inner outrage by misconstruing the most innocuous things.

Wow, just wow.

Amazing huh?

I mention the Muslim nations (along with the Chinese which you oddly enough didn't infer anything from) because the POL of the European dark ages was limited to Europe, thus my point that the POL theme is best considered a regional phenomenon as opposed to a global one. I find that in conversation it is useful to bring up recognizable real world parallels so as to highlight a point. Its a rhetorical technique that aids in understanding.

Man, I cannot believe you are capable of grasping a RPing game with your inability to grasp the written word. Repay the favor!?!?!? Muslim nations are so awesome?!?! What in jeebus' name are you taking about?!?!

You would do well to investigate the ironic humour school of derision.

Of equal use would be for you to discover why it seems that people continue to take you out of context. It's quite possible that you are revealing a lot more of your attitudes than you realise.

In addition is your quicksilver propensity to characterise others as stupid or question their ability to "grasp" the (obviously intellectual) concepts you're throwing out there.

We underestimate people to our own detriment.

And yeah, Muslim nations were pretty damn awesome during the European dark ages compared to much of the world including much of Europe at the time. Its sad that religious fanaticism and other factors has caused such ruin amongst once great civilizations but that is another discussion.

How do you know civilisational ruin wasn't the cause of religious fanaticism?

You seem pretty sure about cause-and-effect despite evidence to the contrary.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

Amazing huh?



You would do well to investigate the ironic humour school of derision.

Of equal use would be for you to discover why it seems that people continue to take you out of context. It's quite possible that you are revealing a lot more of your attitudes than you realise.

In addition is your quicksilver propensity to characterise others as stupid or question their ability to "grasp" the (obviously intellectual) concepts you're throwing out there.

We underestimate people to our own detriment.



How do you know civilisational ruin wasn't the cause of religious fanaticism?

You seem pretty sure about cause-and-effect despite evidence to the contrary.

Enough with the armchair psychoanalysis and threadjack.

The fact is that the internet breeds misinterpretation (due to its lack of nuanced communication and the propensity of many reading messages on forums like this to look for conflict) like crap breeds maggots. Yeah, I know from fly eggs and not due to poopogenesis or somesuch. I just didn't want to be misunderstood.

Its not an either or in regard to te fall of Muslim high civilization. The strict limit, during the 11th century, in regards to further evolution of Islamic philosophy and Koranic interpretation, colonialsm and other factors are at play of course.

This subject is closed for further discussion as far as I am concerned. Feel free to talk more on POL and we can talk, but I'll not respond to this again.



Wyrmshadows