Once per day non-magical effects destroy suspension of disbelief

[hong]

No, not really. If they wanted that, they shouldn't have provided the reality-jarring descriptions. There is simply no logical reason why the maneuvers lumped together as the exploit "Villain's Menace" (and others) should be 1/day.

So the fluff won't win a Pulitzer prize. This does not inhibit you, any more than it inhibits "builder" players in 3E.

Pick any action movie you want- modern or old, American or International- odds are good that at there will be multiple uses of what would be simulated by one of the 1/day non reliable exploits more often than that.

No, it would be simulated by taking down mooks using whatever means you consider narratively appropriate.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

This does not inhibit you, any more than it inhibits "builder" players in 3E.

Sure it does- it damages the suspension of disbelief, it drives me out of my character and back to a guy sitting at a table pushing game pieces around.

Judging from the 2 threads and the poll, I'm not alone there, either.

No, it would be simulated by taking down mooks using whatever means you consider narratively appropriate.

I'm pretty sure I could find examples even using non-mooks.

 

[hong]

Sure it does- it damages the suspension of disbelief, it drives me out of my character and back to a guy sitting at a table pushing game pieces around.

Nonsense. When playing, you use the ability, you don't look at one line of mediocre fluff.

Judging from the 2 threads and the poll, I'm not alone there, either.

Which just means that there are many people who could benefit from not thinking too hard about fantasy.

I'm pretty sure I could find examples even using non-mooks.

Of course you could. And this would not rule out per-day abilities either.

(The OTHER really nice thing about abstracting away from reality is that it becomes non-disprovable.)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Nonsense. When playing, you use the ability, you don't look at one line of mediocre fluff.

You don't know me.

When playing, I'd use the ability and then I ask myself why, based on the fluff, I can't use the ability again.

That's not nonsense, that's a fact. If I can't find a good reason for why a game limits X, Y, or Z, then I start wondering about the rest of the system. I might even stop playing that game. Or never start.

Which just means that there are many people who could benefit from not thinking too hard about fantasy.

Insulting more people doesn't make your argument any more valid or any less insulting.

Of course you could. And this would not rule out per-day abilities either.

It would put the lie to a goodly portion of the fighter's exploits. Enough to continue criticizing it as a poor mechanic that says doesn't model what it says it does.

 

[Toras]

Which just means that there are many people who could benefit from not thinking too hard about fantasy.

You know, I am getting profoundly sick of you trotting that out like its some manner of wisdom. Its the RPG equivalent of a "wizard did it" or more irritatingly "Its magic we don't have to explain it." I wouldn't accept that from book, why in God's good and verdant Earth would I accept it from something that is supposed to be more interactive and immersive.

And leaving aside this fact. Why is the Martial Characters the only one's who don't understand what powers they have available. (Assuming the opportunity) If we are really going to get into the Gamist mindset, everyone else (Psi, Ki, and most definitely magic) knows that they have a couple big spells they can use once, a couple they need to recover from, and a few they can trot out any time they want.

If it really is opportunity, then martial characters are at a disadvantage because when it comes to PC planning, they are never going to know what they have available.

 

[hong]

You don't know me.

Somehow, I can bet that you didn't really look at the fluff for the six million prestige classes out there, after the first. "Oh look, another mystic theurge."

When playing, I'd use the ability and then I ask myself why, based on the fluff, I can't use the ability again.

You can't use the ability again because the writeup says so.

That's not nonsense, that's a fact. If I can't find a good reason for why a game limits X, Y, or Z, then I start wondering about the rest of the system. I might even stop playing that game. Or never start.

And if you didn't worry about good reasons, you'd never have to stop playing the game. It is all very logical -- assuming, of course, that playing the game is a more meaningful pursuit than nursing one's grievances.

Insulting more people doesn't make your argument any more valid or any less insulting.

Which does not change the fact that they could benefit from not thinking too hard about fantasy.

It would put the lie to a goodly portion of the fighter's exploits. Enough to continue criticizing it as a poor mechanic that says doesn't model what it says it does.

It models what it says it does perfectly well.

 

[hong]

You know, I am getting profoundly sick of you trotting that out like its some manner of wisdom. Its the RPG equivalent of a "wizard did it" or more irritatingly "Its magic we don't have to explain it." I wouldn't accept that from book, why in God's good and verdant Earth would I accept it from something that is supposed to be more interactive and immersive.

Exactly. Because it aids interactivity. If one is not playing the game, by definition, one is not interacting.

If it really is opportunity, then martial characters are at a disadvantage because when it comes to PC planning, they are never going to know what they have available.

In the gamist mindset, everyone does know what they have available. What you are trying but failing to identify is why those opportunities happen to appear only X times per day.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Somehow, I can bet that you didn't really look at the fluff for the six million prestige classes out there, after the first. "Oh look, another mystic theurge."

Why would I? And how in the world is that relevant?

You can't use the ability again because the writeup says so.

Sorry, "Because I said so" regardless of context, hasn't been a valid and meaningful answer since I was 7 years old.

And if you didn't worry about good reasons, you'd never have to stop playing the game. It is all very logical -- assuming, of course, that playing the game is a more meaningful pursuit than nursing one's grievances.

You're essentially telling me to "Play dumb and have fun!" Nice motto for a game.

Again, I'm not going to ignore the problems I have with the game in order to play 4Ed. If I were that kind of person, I'd be playing a LOT of bad games.

Which does not change the fact that they could benefit from not thinking too hard about fantasy.

When will your horse carcass reach "puree?"

No one benefits from underuse of their brainpower.

It models what it says it does perfectly well.

Not even close. Villain's Menace says it models a flurry of blows etc., but limits its use to 1/day. Rain of Steel says it models "constantly" swinging your weapon in a certain way- again 1/day. And so forth.

My credulity is strained.

 

[hong]

Why would I? And how in the world is that relevant?

Because "builder" players look at prestige classes first and foremost as collections of special abilities to be put together in search of a concept. Whatever fluff may be present in terms of in-game organisations, activities that must be completed to join, and so forth, is secondary.

Sorry, "Because I said so" regardless of context, hasn't been a valid and meaningful answer since I was 7 years old.

This is why you make it up. You're allowed, in the context of a make-believe pursuit. Hint: those elves aren't real.

You're essentially telling me to "Play dumb and have fun!" Nice motto for a game.

Again, I'm not going to ignore the problems I have with the game in order to play 4Ed. If I were that kind of person, I'd be playing a LOT of bad games.

And see? You'd be having a lot more fun.

... unless, that is, you derive fun from complaining about the inabilities of said games to provide you with fun. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

When will your horse carcass reach "puree?"

I don't know. When will my horse carcass reach puree?

No one benefits from underuse of their brainpower.

Of course they do, if it results in more fun.

Not even close. Villain's Menace says it models a flurry of blows etc., but limits its use to 1/day. Rain of Steel says it models "constantly" swinging your weapon in a certain way- again 1/day. And so forth.

So the fluff won't win a Pulitzer prize.

 

[FireLance]

Not even close. Villain's Menace says it models a flurry of blows etc., but limits its use to 1/day. Rain of Steel says it models "constantly" swinging your weapon in a certain way- again 1/day. And so forth.

My credulity is strained.

Would the following work for you? It does require you to accept that there are some types of injury that can only be healed by time, and not by magic, though.

Martial daily abilities represent the PC pushing his body beyond its normal physical limits, so much so that it actually damages it a little (a particular muscle is strained or pulled, or the character's vision is slightly blurred, etc). This sort of damage is not represented by hit points, and does not otherwise hamper a character's effectiveness, but it does make it impossible for him to pull off exactly the same stunt until he gets an extended rest. He may try to do it, but his balance or timing will always be a little off (and it defaults to the most relevant at-will ability that he has).