Is D&D 4E too "far out" to expand the market easily?

2/ I was actually talking about how someone totally inexperienced in any form of fantasy/RPG/geekery will react to the memes of D&D. "Gnome" is far more understandable right off the bat for a noob just flipping through the book, and might actually conjure a compelling image of fairy tales/fantasy the potential buyer might want to explore by actually reading the product, rather than seeing "dragonborns", "tieflings" and "eladrins".

Er, WHAT fantasy heritage?

Ask the average non-gamer, "what's a gnome" and I'll almost 100% positive they're going to say "Oh you mean that traveller/lawn gnome thing"

Then they're going to ask, "Why the hell am I going to want to play that?"
Similarly, the half-orc is going to get responses such as "wait, you mean those come from human and those things from the peter hackson LOTR movie? Eeww...why am I going to play a child of rape?"

I personally still think Dragonborn are the easiest "race" for any non-gamer to grok.

re: Star Wars
I'm with TwinBahamut. SW setting is totally SF, but the actual storylines? Totalty independent (why do you think there was such a backlash to the Phantom Menace with the revelation of midocholorians?)
 

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Defining Science Fiction is not all that difficult. It's a genre, not a setting. SF deals with certain themes - namely the effect of science on what it means to be human. A story set 100 000 years ago featuring mammoth hunters could easily fit into the SF genre (and does) so long as it discusses what it means to be human in the face of scientific progress.

By that definition, by the accepted definition of the genre of Science Fiction, Star Wars is most certainly not SF. It's fantasy. Setting does not define genre whatsoever. The fact that Star Wars has robots and blasters doesn't matter. It's not SF because it does not, in any way, relate the plot to the development of technology.

You can reskin Star Wars as fantasy pretty easily. Same as you can reskin original Star Trek as Western. Later Star Trek started becoming more solidly SF, but the early stuff barely qualified.

The problem comes when people try to define genre through setting. That's not how you define genre, generally. It makes a fairly good starting place, but, it's plot and theme that defines genre, not location and props.
I don't buy it.

The problem with defining it as "the story is resolved through technology" or "the effect of technology on what it means to be human" is that the terms and ideas being used there are just too vague. For example, how do you define "technology" in this sense? In many fantasy settings that feature magic, magic is treated like a form of "technology", and stories deal with how the existence of magic mold culture and change history (the Wheel of Time and Heralds of Valdemar series might be good examples of this). In fact, the basic premise of "how does X affect mankind" is probably far broader than the entire scope of Science Fiction. Science fictions stories that deal with the impact of technology upon mankind are just that kind of story, given a Science Fiction setting.

Besides, if you use that logic to say Star Wars is not Science Fiction, then several other major works of science fiction would also be disqualified. For example, the Dune series really is not focused on technology at all. The technology is just setting, while the main story is built around political maneuvering and the growth and development of a messiah figure. Similarly, 2001: A Space Odyssey also does not use technology as its central story. It is mainly preoccupied with human contact with an unknown force. The entire interaction between Dave and HAL could just as easily been an interaction between two people; the fact that one was a computer is mostly just window-dressing. I have not read the book myself (I have only seen the movie), but the entire premise behind Contact is the idea of human contact with a an alien life-form. Again, the technology is irrelevent (and in the case of Contact, it is just a magical plot device that is not even understood by the people involved). The real story is about curiosity and faith, not science and technology.

Anyways, you claim that your definiton is the "accepted definition", but I have to ask "by whom"? Certainly not bookstores, I know that. They don't even treat Science Fiction and Fantasy as different at all... Certainly it doesn't seem to be the definition I see used in common discourse. When someone says "Science Fiction", they usually mean "robots and spaceships", not "cavemen learning how to use bows".

Also, if Science Fiction has such a clear definition, then what is the equivalent definition for Fantasy? These are two terms that always go together, serving as two sides of the same coin. If you want to seperate them at all by genre boundaries, rather than setting boundaries (where the line is fairly distinct), you need to give a good definition. If you can make a claim that Star Wars is Fantasy, but not Science Fiction, what definition are you using other than "it is kinda like Science fiction, but it doesn't meet my definition, so it is Fantasy"?
 

2/ I was actually talking about how someone totally inexperienced in any form of fantasy/RPG/geekery will react to the memes of D&D. "Gnome" is far more understandable right off the bat for a noob just flipping through the book, and might actually conjure a compelling image of fairy tales/fantasy the potential buyer might want to explore by actually reading the product, rather than seeing "dragonborns", "tieflings" and "eladrins".
It's been said, but I repeat it: the "compelling image" of a gnome that the average person is going to have is the garden gnome. (Or, if they've played WoW, a tiny, somewhat annoying tinkerer.)

Furthermore... someone "totally inexperienced in any form of fantasy/RPG/geekery"? Who would that be, having never seen Star Wars, LotR trilogy, Buffy, or whatever; and why on Earth would they be interested in trying out D&D without an existing geeky friend/parent/sibling/whatever to introduce them to it?
 

Seeing as how Star Wars is fantasy fairy tale set in space, and having played The Dark Eye, or Wizardry, Final Fantasy, having read fantasy novels, manga, watched cartoons like He-Man, Thundercats, the Dynoriders, or anime, where scaly people are normal and not persecuted, I think D&D having firebreathing mini-bipedal-dragons living side by side with centaurs, human-demon-bastards, beardy miners, pointy-eared emos, catpeople, dragon-troll-hybrids, elementals, sentient golems and other stuff that is prevalent will do fine, as did all the other editions.
 

I think D&D having firebreathing mini-bipedal-dragons living side by side with centaurs, human-demon-bastards, beardy miners, pointy-eared emos, catpeople, dragon-troll-hybrids, elementals, sentient golems and other stuff that is prevalent will do fine, as did all the other editions.
Sure, but it's a matter of screentime. If you have cyberdemon haberdashers in the core PHB, they'll be over-represented, because they'll be PCs (who are "on screen" all the time, basically, which has a huge effect on the tone of the game) in close to all the campaigns and worlds you come across.

And you'll be left wondering why cyberdemon haberdashers in particular - why aren't werewhale rocketskaters represented? And because there's no mythology behind them to back them up, like with elves and dwarves, you'll be right in saving to disbelieve because it's completely arbitrary (except in a marketing, trademark, product identity sense, perhaps, but none of them are on the side of suspension of disbelief or worldbuilding).

A one-time cameo from an NPC werewhale rocketskater in the odd campaign is a lot different to having most campaigns having one played as a PC, and a lot different to trying to find a place for werewhales and their rocketskates in every D&D world (which needs to happen because they're a core PC race) which doesn't go to the trouble of banning them outright for being stupid.
 
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1) I'd be willing to bet that the vast, vast majority of people who would be getting into tabletop would identify gnomes more with the Warcraft version then the garden one.

2) Why are half orcs messy and half elves aren't? I never understood this one.
 

1) I'd be willing to bet that the vast, vast majority of people who would be getting into tabletop would identify gnomes more with the Warcraft version then the garden one.
And wouldn't they be disappointed with the D&D Gnome, who is very different?

2) Why are half orcs messy and half elves aren't? I never understood this one.

Orcs are savage brutes that plunder and pillage villages that enjoy violence and chaos.
Elves and Humans are civilized beings that form social communities, build cities and enjoy beautiful art and passionate music.

Give these assumptions:
What is more likely to be off-spring of a caring pair of lovers?
1) Half-Elf
2) Half-Orc
What is more likely to be the result of a brutal rape?
1) Half-Elf
2) Half-Orc
 

It's been said, but I repeat it: the "compelling image" of a gnome that the average person is going to have is the garden gnome. (Or, if they've played WoW, a tiny, somewhat annoying tinkerer.)

Furthermore... someone "totally inexperienced in any form of fantasy/RPG/geekery"? Who would that be, having never seen Star Wars, LotR trilogy, Buffy, or whatever; and why on Earth would they be interested in trying out D&D without an existing geeky friend/parent/sibling/whatever to introduce them to it?

What you say about gnomes is valid for the english language, but in german for instance the garden gnome is known as zwerg= dwarf, and the gnome (german: gnom) has some air of mystery around him.
 

The main argument seems to be a chicken-egg dilemma. Which comes first? Can DnD be a person's first exposure to fantasy, or did the seed of geekery lead them to DnD? I still say that you'd have to have been living under a rock to not be exposed to the themes of fantasy before.

Think about wandering around a bookstore. It's a self-selected environment. If you have no interest in romance novels, you won't pay any attention to that section. Who are these people that randomly encounter the PHB and pick it up? Taking a step back, we're in a BOOK store? Casual reading has been in decline for a while now. Once again we're dealing with a narrow slice of population with a larger than average cultural vocabulary.

What about those people under a rock? The closest we could probably get and be in the realm of plausibility would be the Amish. Literate, but the only book they've ever read was the bible (just for the experiment). We'll also assume that our Amish person doesn't outright reject the book based on its themes. Are there parallels to the bible? I'm not even a bible scholar and can think of a lot:

Gods, angels, devils and otherworldly planes.
Giants and those that slay them.
A man swallowed by a great beast.
Super-human strength.
Staffs turning to snakes, miracle healing, and other magic.
Kings, castles, and great cites.

I also don't get why some posters think elves and dwarves have a strong cultural memory either. In the US early exposure might be from the Disney animated movies. But then the dwarves in that aren't very DnD (strangely, more gnominsh). I don't know where I might have seen an elf, maybe from other classic fairy tales, but they seem light on friendly, human like races and heavy on bridge trolls. If it wasn't for the movies Tolkien would still be just a geek thing along with all the other fantasy novels on the shelf.

It's impossible to grow up human and not be exposed to the myths and stories of your culture. Most of those myths involve otherworldly beings and people. DnD is notable because it's borrowed from almost all of them and combined it into its own mythology. The themes are universal. A particular depiction of a theme, like dragonborn, is just window dressing.
 

If it wasn't for the movies Tolkien would still be just a geek thing along with all the other fantasy novels on the shelf.

Um, no. Tolkien has been at large in the general mainstream for many years before the movies came about. College-level courses and critiques are taught about his works, and they appear on the required reading lists at many schools.
 

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