THE PREMISE
Casters have got it all over non-casters in terms of both power and versatility.
(The rest of the post assumes this statement to be true, and its validity isn't what I hope to discuss. If you disagree then I'd be happy to discuss it in another thread
)
Key Issues:
1. Save-or-suck spells (and monster abilities) are overpowered and fun-diminishing.
2. Polymorphs are easily abusable, and tedious to impliment on the fly as well.
3. Casters have little or no MAD* so they pump their casting stat sky-high to achieve insane save DCs
4. Non-casters can't get access to caster-only effects, aside from NPCs casting on their behalf and Use Magic Device.
5. Some specific spells are problematic.
* Multiple Ability Dependency
Any others?
SOME PROPOSED SOLUTIONS
1. Nerf Save-or-Suck
Targets under the effect of a save-or-suck spell are allowed a new save at the beginning of their turn each round to break free. Doing this counts as a standard action. Only non-permanent spells that affect the number of actions you can take in a round are subject to this nerf - spells that simply apply penalties don't allow a save each round. E.g. sleep, tasha's hideous laughter, web, slow, and stinking cloud are subject to the nerf; doom and bestow curse aren't.
This nerf means that there is a chance to break out of the spell each round, and even take swift/move actions thereafter in the same round. Reduces need for the sleeping fighter's player to go play Xbox (maybe?).
2. Nerf Polymorph
The Polymorph and Polymorph Any Object spells work more like Baleful Polymorph. This means that the target’s normal game statistics are replaced by those of the new form, with the following exceptions:
* The target retains its own alignment (and personality, within the limits of the new form’s ability scores).
* The target retains its own hit points.
* The target is treated has having its normal Hit Dice for purpose of adjudicating effects based on HD, such as the sleep spell, though it uses the new form’s base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and all other statistics derived from Hit Dice.
It also means that:
* The target loses all the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features.
* All items worn or carried by the subject fall to the ground at its feet, even if they could be worn or carried by the new form.
Unlike baleful polymorph, the target keeps its own intelligence score and doesn't gain the new form's spellcasting, supernatural or spell-like abilities. The methods of ending the spell or assuming a new form remain in effect. E.g. the caster can dismiss polymorph even if he has lost access to his class features because he used it on himself.
The nerf filters through to other effects based on polymorph, like a druid's Wild Shape. Shapechange works in this way too, the difference being that it does allow for supernatural and spell-like abilities.
This nerf has several advantages. First, various polymorphs lose alot of "oomph" as combat buffs when class levels are removed from the equation. Second, it reduces the need for mid-game recalculations because you can just use the stats right out of the Monster Manual for the most part.
How to apply this to Alter Self, though?
3. Change save DC stat to Charisma For All Casters
Because charisma represents the raw force of personality, and ability to activly enforce your will on the world. This means that, in core, clerics, druids, and wizards become duakl-stat casters, while bards and sorcerers remain the only single-stat casters. Given that bards/sorcerers are generally seen as inferior to the "3 big casters" this seems ok at first glance.
Being a dual-stat caster means you don't gain as much benefit from pumping a single casting ability through the roof and that you need to distribute your resources between the two statistics. As a result, the save DCs for spells should (?) average a point or two lower... thats the idea anyway.
4. Add Rituals
A ritual is a standard spell cast with a long, expensive, and perilous methodology. Anyone can attempt to use a spell as a ritual, even if they have no spellcasting ability or if the spell in question is from another class’s spell list.
To use a ritual a character must have access to the spell in written form in a language he can read. Using the spell as a ritual adds 10 minutes per spell level to the casting time, and requires additional raw materials costing (spell level x caster level x 5gp). These additional materials consist of Alchemical Reagents (for all arcane rituals), Sanctified Incense (for clerical divine rituals), or Rare Herbs (for druidic divine rituals).
A ritual has a caster level of twice the spell’s level minus one. The caster must succeed at an intelligence check (for an arcane spell) or a wisdom check (for a divine spell) with a DC of 10 + spell level or else the spell fails and the materials are used up. You can’t apply metamagic feats to a ritual, but can use them for item creation.
You can use Aid Another to assist someone else with a ritual. Make an intelligence check (if assisting with an arcane spell) or a wisdom check (if assisting with a divine spell). The DC is 10 in either case, and if successful you provde a +2 bonus to the ritual caster's own ability check to use the ritual. Assisting with a ritual requires your participation for the full casting time.
A spell in written form suitable for a ritual has a market price of spell level x 200gp and requires one page in a book (or scroll sheet) per spell level. Spells in a wizard's spellbook are also usable for ritual use, as long as they can be deciphered via spellcraft, read magic, etc.
Yoinked from 4e, obviously. One of the best parts of the new game, IMO.
Rituals add a whole new dimension to the game, and greatly assist the caster vs. non-caster issue by giving non-casters access to out-of-combat effects that were previously the exclusive domain of casters. They also potentially allow non-casters to create items (with a little change to the feat prereqs), which I think is awesome on toast. In these two ways, they spread a little caster love among everyone.
Note however, that wizards are the best at arcane rituals and clerics/druids the best at divine rituals. Maybe a ritual caster feat to allow other classes to catch up somewhat would be in order?
Another nice benefit of rituals is that groups without a specific caster can now access essential out-of-combat effects from that caster's list, especially if the whole group works together by chipping in for the component cost and using the Aid Another action.
The costs for ritual components are half what you'd pay to have an NPC spellcaster use the spell on your behalf, applying the same principle that most item creation does: materials cost = half market price. The cost for getting a written spell in the first place is twice what it costs to scribe a spell into a spellbook, for the same reason.
5. Nerf Specific Spells
* Divine Power: Ban it. Or, replace effect with: 1 temp hp per level and can make an extra attack as part of full attack but then all attacks at -2 until next turn.
* Glitterdust: Invisibles that are outlined can save each round to shake free of the glitter, resuming their invisibility.
* Greater Teleport: See teleport. Let fiends with greater teleport at will also use dimension door at will so they can still 'port in combat.
* Miracle: Has a 5,000xp component just like wish does.
* Mordenkainen's Disjunction: Disjoined item powers return after 24 hours, unless caster chooses to lose all spellcasting ability (as with artifact destruction).
* Righteous Might: Ban it. Or, make it just like a self-only enlarge person spell that also gives 1 temporary hit point per level.
* Rope Trick: Duration 10 mins / level. Even when extended by a 20th level caster, it cannot now be used to rest for 8 hours.
* Flesh to Stone: First failed save = slowed, one round later make another save to break free or be petrified.
* Teleport: Teleporting creatures are dazed for 1 round upon arrival (no save). Nerf to scry-buff-teleport.
Others?
----
Overall Thoughts? Specific Thoughts? Specifically, tweaks and additions.
Have I accidentally made things stronger instead of nerfing them?
How would these nerfs work in conjunction with the save DC formula from my other thread here? http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=233804 Do they help with some of the issues raised therein, or exacerbate them?
Casters have got it all over non-casters in terms of both power and versatility.
(The rest of the post assumes this statement to be true, and its validity isn't what I hope to discuss. If you disagree then I'd be happy to discuss it in another thread
)Key Issues:
1. Save-or-suck spells (and monster abilities) are overpowered and fun-diminishing.
2. Polymorphs are easily abusable, and tedious to impliment on the fly as well.
3. Casters have little or no MAD* so they pump their casting stat sky-high to achieve insane save DCs
4. Non-casters can't get access to caster-only effects, aside from NPCs casting on their behalf and Use Magic Device.
5. Some specific spells are problematic.
* Multiple Ability Dependency
Any others?
SOME PROPOSED SOLUTIONS
1. Nerf Save-or-Suck
Targets under the effect of a save-or-suck spell are allowed a new save at the beginning of their turn each round to break free. Doing this counts as a standard action. Only non-permanent spells that affect the number of actions you can take in a round are subject to this nerf - spells that simply apply penalties don't allow a save each round. E.g. sleep, tasha's hideous laughter, web, slow, and stinking cloud are subject to the nerf; doom and bestow curse aren't.
This nerf means that there is a chance to break out of the spell each round, and even take swift/move actions thereafter in the same round. Reduces need for the sleeping fighter's player to go play Xbox (maybe?).
2. Nerf Polymorph
The Polymorph and Polymorph Any Object spells work more like Baleful Polymorph. This means that the target’s normal game statistics are replaced by those of the new form, with the following exceptions:
* The target retains its own alignment (and personality, within the limits of the new form’s ability scores).
* The target retains its own hit points.
* The target is treated has having its normal Hit Dice for purpose of adjudicating effects based on HD, such as the sleep spell, though it uses the new form’s base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and all other statistics derived from Hit Dice.
It also means that:
* The target loses all the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features.
* All items worn or carried by the subject fall to the ground at its feet, even if they could be worn or carried by the new form.
Unlike baleful polymorph, the target keeps its own intelligence score and doesn't gain the new form's spellcasting, supernatural or spell-like abilities. The methods of ending the spell or assuming a new form remain in effect. E.g. the caster can dismiss polymorph even if he has lost access to his class features because he used it on himself.
The nerf filters through to other effects based on polymorph, like a druid's Wild Shape. Shapechange works in this way too, the difference being that it does allow for supernatural and spell-like abilities.
This nerf has several advantages. First, various polymorphs lose alot of "oomph" as combat buffs when class levels are removed from the equation. Second, it reduces the need for mid-game recalculations because you can just use the stats right out of the Monster Manual for the most part.
How to apply this to Alter Self, though?
3. Change save DC stat to Charisma For All Casters
Because charisma represents the raw force of personality, and ability to activly enforce your will on the world. This means that, in core, clerics, druids, and wizards become duakl-stat casters, while bards and sorcerers remain the only single-stat casters. Given that bards/sorcerers are generally seen as inferior to the "3 big casters" this seems ok at first glance.
Being a dual-stat caster means you don't gain as much benefit from pumping a single casting ability through the roof and that you need to distribute your resources between the two statistics. As a result, the save DCs for spells should (?) average a point or two lower... thats the idea anyway.
4. Add Rituals
A ritual is a standard spell cast with a long, expensive, and perilous methodology. Anyone can attempt to use a spell as a ritual, even if they have no spellcasting ability or if the spell in question is from another class’s spell list.
To use a ritual a character must have access to the spell in written form in a language he can read. Using the spell as a ritual adds 10 minutes per spell level to the casting time, and requires additional raw materials costing (spell level x caster level x 5gp). These additional materials consist of Alchemical Reagents (for all arcane rituals), Sanctified Incense (for clerical divine rituals), or Rare Herbs (for druidic divine rituals).
A ritual has a caster level of twice the spell’s level minus one. The caster must succeed at an intelligence check (for an arcane spell) or a wisdom check (for a divine spell) with a DC of 10 + spell level or else the spell fails and the materials are used up. You can’t apply metamagic feats to a ritual, but can use them for item creation.
You can use Aid Another to assist someone else with a ritual. Make an intelligence check (if assisting with an arcane spell) or a wisdom check (if assisting with a divine spell). The DC is 10 in either case, and if successful you provde a +2 bonus to the ritual caster's own ability check to use the ritual. Assisting with a ritual requires your participation for the full casting time.
A spell in written form suitable for a ritual has a market price of spell level x 200gp and requires one page in a book (or scroll sheet) per spell level. Spells in a wizard's spellbook are also usable for ritual use, as long as they can be deciphered via spellcraft, read magic, etc.
Yoinked from 4e, obviously. One of the best parts of the new game, IMO.
Rituals add a whole new dimension to the game, and greatly assist the caster vs. non-caster issue by giving non-casters access to out-of-combat effects that were previously the exclusive domain of casters. They also potentially allow non-casters to create items (with a little change to the feat prereqs), which I think is awesome on toast. In these two ways, they spread a little caster love among everyone.
Note however, that wizards are the best at arcane rituals and clerics/druids the best at divine rituals. Maybe a ritual caster feat to allow other classes to catch up somewhat would be in order?
Another nice benefit of rituals is that groups without a specific caster can now access essential out-of-combat effects from that caster's list, especially if the whole group works together by chipping in for the component cost and using the Aid Another action.
The costs for ritual components are half what you'd pay to have an NPC spellcaster use the spell on your behalf, applying the same principle that most item creation does: materials cost = half market price. The cost for getting a written spell in the first place is twice what it costs to scribe a spell into a spellbook, for the same reason.
5. Nerf Specific Spells
* Divine Power: Ban it. Or, replace effect with: 1 temp hp per level and can make an extra attack as part of full attack but then all attacks at -2 until next turn.
* Glitterdust: Invisibles that are outlined can save each round to shake free of the glitter, resuming their invisibility.
* Greater Teleport: See teleport. Let fiends with greater teleport at will also use dimension door at will so they can still 'port in combat.
* Miracle: Has a 5,000xp component just like wish does.
* Mordenkainen's Disjunction: Disjoined item powers return after 24 hours, unless caster chooses to lose all spellcasting ability (as with artifact destruction).
* Righteous Might: Ban it. Or, make it just like a self-only enlarge person spell that also gives 1 temporary hit point per level.
* Rope Trick: Duration 10 mins / level. Even when extended by a 20th level caster, it cannot now be used to rest for 8 hours.
* Flesh to Stone: First failed save = slowed, one round later make another save to break free or be petrified.
* Teleport: Teleporting creatures are dazed for 1 round upon arrival (no save). Nerf to scry-buff-teleport.
Others?
----
Overall Thoughts? Specific Thoughts? Specifically, tweaks and additions.
Have I accidentally made things stronger instead of nerfing them?
How would these nerfs work in conjunction with the save DC formula from my other thread here? http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=233804 Do they help with some of the issues raised therein, or exacerbate them?
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