Question about Sleep (Wizard Attack 1)

[Caliban]

Or sleep.

The Sleep spell specifies that it causes unconciousness. Since it doesn't say that it puts you to sleep, it doesn't put you to sleep. Don't confuse the name of the spell with the actual effects of the spell.

I have found it. There are two more rogue powers that cause the unconscious condition: knockout and garrote grip. In both powers, the "Hit" effect includes one additional save condition: "If the unconscious target takes any damage, it is no longer uncoscious." Thus, since this additional clause is missing in the sleep power description, you can wake up only on a successful save. I am not happy with this conclusion, but it is consistent after all.

That's the way it works. As Cust Serv said.

Why is this clause missing?

Because the sleep spell doesn't actually put you to sleep. It magically makes you unconcious. The rogue powers mimic the "natural" version of unconciousness.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Or sleep.

Well, no. If all you were given was that Sleep has the Sleep keyword, you would be able to deduce that it either a/ causes unconsciousness, or b/ causes sleep.

But since we also have the Hit text of the Sleep power, we know that a/ is correct, and the Sleep power causes unconsciousness.

-Hyp.

 

[Giryan]

The biggest problem with Sleep if it causes sleep, rather than unconsciousness, you'd have a really good argument for waking up as soon as it was cast, because I know for sure that I A) couldn't sleep standing up, and B) would wake up if I fell over/out of bed.

 

[Maudragon]

The Sleep spell specifies that it causes unconciousness. Since it doesn't say that it puts you to sleep, it doesn't put you to sleep. Don't confuse the name of the spell with the actual effects of the spell.

I was referring to the name and Keyword of the spell.

Because the sleep spell doesn't actually put you to sleep. It magically makes you unconcious.

I would skip this part of the explanation since you can be either if favor or against any likely explanation (magic vs. physics etc.)

You cannot wake up simply because the saving throw rule has precedence over any other rules regarding the duration and the effect of a condition. It is not stated in the save clause. Period.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I was referring to the name and Keyword of the spell.

Right, but the name is meaningless - the name is not a rule.

The Keyword tells us the power will induce either sleep or unconsciousness.

The Hit entry tells us which one of those it is. And it isn't sleep.

-Hyp.

 

[Maudragon]

Right, but the name is meaningless - the name is not a rule.

True, but in my opinion the name in this case is misleading for the casual reader or old editions players.

The Keyword tells us the power will induce either sleep or unconsciousness.

Generally speaking it looks like there is no fixed rule for Keywords (or at least I was not able to find one). Some Keywords include two effect while others refer to only one. Please, notice that Sleep Keyword is used only once in all the Player's Handbook, and (can you guess it?) this is used in combination with the sleep spell. Unless Wizards plans other "Sleep" type powers, this is a good example of poor wording which could have been easily avoided.

Ciao

 

[Branduil]

Coup de Grace isn't very deadly in 4e, so Sleep isn't as overpowered as it might seem. If the creature fails it's save you should do some nice damage, but unless it's already quite hurt it's unlikely that Sleep will be a save-or-die.

 

[Hypersmurf]

True, but in my opinion the name in this case is misleading for the casual reader or old editions players.

The casual reader needs to read the 'Hit' entry.

The Old Edition player needs to understand that Sleep doesn't affect up to 4HD of creatures, those with the fewest hit dice first; or 2d8 hit dice of creatures with no save; or however it worked in the edition he's most familiar with... so, again, he needs to read the 'Hit' entry.

Unless Wizards plans other "Sleep" type powers...

I rather suspect they do. Consider the beholder, night hag, and oni from the Monster Manual, in addition, who also have abilities with the Sleep keyword.

-Hyp.

 

[Maudragon]

If the creature fails it's save you should do some nice damage, but unless it's already quite hurt it's unlikely that Sleep will be a save-or-die.

As DM, while running the Kobold Hall final encounter, I missed three sleep saves in a row (it can happen when you let the dice fall where they may ). The outcome was like the final scene of Tarantino's Grindhouse, with the monster beaten by all the characters around it. It was pathetic and anticlimatic, no matter what the rules say. For sure, that event was unlikely, but not impossible, and it can happen again.

 

[Heliac]

Hey ppl, I'm trying to get a ruling on whether Orb of Imposition can be applied to saves of both the "unconscious" and the "slowed" conditions, or only one of them (i.e. are the two conditions seen as one effect)... Any comments?