Grading At-Will Powers

[KarinsDad]

OK, I'm runnning a Warlord and I am not sure of the value of this power UNLESS you have a higher Int than Str AND if you have someone in the group that can hit & dish out more damage than you (and do you need to be in melee as well?). Am I missing something?

It depends a bit on party makeup.

Basic Attack damage for a Defender might be quite high.

And, Int does not need to be greater than Str. If the ally does better average damage and has a better change to hit then than Warlord, giving him another attack plus Int damage can often be better than the Warlord +2 to hit of Wolf Pack.

If an enemy doesn't shift, Viper's Strike is pretty weak too (also, VS might incentivize an enemy to attack the Warlord because a Marked foe might figure he'll get attacked in either case).

And Furious Strike is Meh damage.

Commander's Strike can be the best of the lot depending on party makeup.

 

[Darkthorne]

I don't understand the logic of saying giving a defender/high str pc a basic attack (commander's strike which bonus damage = 16 Int 3 for example & losing yours) instead of giving anyone in melee a bonus to hit & dam = 16 cha 3 to any melee attack of theirs + you also do your 16 str 3 damage as well. 1 is useful only when giving a high str melee PC a +3 to damage against AC, while the other (using same stats) is giving a +3 to hit & damage to possibly any defense (more odds of hitting if against a low defense) using any melee power and you also get to add in your str damage from your attack

 

[Darkthorne]

As for Wolf pack that can give combat advantage due to flanking so that also boosts the damage possibility if you have a rogue

 

[small pumpkin man]

I don't understand the logic of saying giving a defender/high str pc a basic attack (commander's strike which bonus damage = 16 Int 3 for example & losing yours) instead of giving anyone in melee a bonus to hit & dam = 16 cha 3 to any melee attack of theirs + you also do your 16 str 3 damage as well. 1 is useful only when giving a high str melee PC a +3 to damage against AC, while the other (using same stats) is giving a +3 to hit & damage to possibly any defense (more odds of hitting if against a low defense) using any melee power and you also get to add in your str damage from your attack

Yes, but Commanders Strike just works, and requires no action on the part of the other character, Furious Smash requires you to hit fort and then on their turn the other character has to make an attack to get the bonuses

They're actually used in different situations, Commanders Strike is just a good useful at will, whereas Furious Smash is what you use to set up another character's daily.

 

[keterys]

Still seems restrictive & stat dependant. Also shouldn't the damage be +8? If even with the 16 Str you could be either the highest or tied as the highest for Str in which case you would want to use any other power w/ a bonus effect (Furious Smash gives you Str+Cha damage +cha to hit on his next attack which doesn't have to be a basic one). The one perk of this power I could see is if you are statused by something (weakened etc) where someone's basic attack is way better than your at wills

Should be +6 = +4 from Int, +1 from him having higher Str, +1 from him using a 2h weapon. The +2 attack is +1 from fighter and +1 from str. The gap widens if the fighter also has weapon focus and such and the warlord doesn't, but I wasn't going to count on that. Feel free to add the +2 from the bracers, though, to get +8.

Furious Smash doesn't have a damage die, which is particularly important at later level when it means you don't get weapon focus, enhancement bonus, power bonus to damage, etc. It ends up being a lot less damage. Its main strength is giving an attack bonus for someone else's important powers.

 

[MwaO]

Well AC 20 is not a level-appropriate opponent for a 1st level character.

Encounter level 1 for 5 PCs is 500 xp of monsters. A perfectly reasonable encounter would be a Hobgoblin Soldier + 2 Hobgoblin Minions + 2 goblin skirmishers + 2 Goblin Cutters(minions) = 501 XP.

As a 1st level character, you're expected to be able to fight n+2 monsters who are not solos in standard fights - heck, you're supposed to be able to fight n+5 monsters in hard fights.

Perhaps that's the reason you're so enthralled by damage vs to hit - you've been softballing during your playtests...

You've also said twice now that Bastard Sword and Weapon Focus are the same, but they are not. Even at 1[W], the Bastard sword does better DPR as it does more damage on a crit. With 2[W] or higher[W] the Bastard sword also is obviously better than weapon focus.

Effectively...

If you're doing say 10 more hit points on average per 20 swings with a bastard sword because you used Power Attack, you're doing the same 10 more hit points on average with a longsword. The difference in average damage per round is the same. i.e. 101-91 = 10. 100-90 = 10. 10 = 10.

When we start talking about 2[W] or higher, it is an entirely different set of numbers, because you're doing so much more damage on average as a base and therefore the value of a +1 to hit goes up.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't understand the logic of saying giving a defender/high str pc a basic attack (commander's strike which bonus damage = 16 Int 3 for example & losing yours) instead of giving anyone in melee a bonus to hit & dam = 16 cha 3 to any melee attack of theirs + you also do your 16 str 3 damage as well. 1 is useful only when giving a high str melee PC a +3 to damage against AC, while the other (using same stats) is giving a +3 to hit & damage to possibly any defense (more odds of hitting if against a low defense) using any melee power and you also get to add in your str damage from your attack

With Commander's Strike , the ally gets an extra attack on the Warlord's turn. The ally still get his normal actions on his normal turn. The ally does not lose his normal turn.


That Commander's Strike attack is typically better to hit than what the Warlord himself can do.

That attack has +Int damage.

Take an example of the Warlord at 16 Int, +6 to hit for ~8 damage and a Fighter is +7 to hit for ~10 damage, the Fighter gets an extra attack at +7 to hit for ~13 damage.

+7 ~13 is greater than +6 ~8.


If the Warlord used Wolf Pack Tactics, he would be +8 ~8 damage (vs. +7 ~13) and Commander's Strike is still often better (there is no guarantee that the Fighter still gets the flank, or would not have had the flank anyway).


If the Warlord used Viper Strike, he would be +6 ~8 damage (vs. +7 ~13) and Commander's Strike is still often better (there is no guarantee that the Fighter would get an opportunity attack or a flank).


And Furious Smash is hardly helpful at all. Two attacks by the Fighter (one of them with a boost to damage) is typically a lot better than a boost to hit and damage IF the Warlord hits for a minor amount of damage.

 

[LittleElvis]

Encounter level 1 for 5 PCs is 500 xp of monsters. A perfectly reasonable encounter would be a Hobgoblin Soldier + 2 Hobgoblin Minions + 2 goblin skirmishers + 2 Goblin Cutters(minions) = 501 XP.

As a 1st level character, you're expected to be able to fight n+2 monsters who are not solos in standard fights - heck, you're supposed to be able to fight n+5 monsters in hard fights.

Perhaps that's the reason you're so enthralled by damage vs to hit - you've been softballing during your playtests...

Considering that I'm playing in two campaigns, observing a third, playtesting against different sorts of opponents, and obviously calculating things like DPR, no that's actually not the case.

Actually one of the main tests I ran were different level 1 Paladins against a level 6 Cave Bear with an AC of 20. The STR Pals were able to do a lot more damage to them before getting killed than the CHA Pals, fwiw, although that's a different topic.

You are of course right that a 1st level character can face AC of 20 (or a bit higher) if the DM wants him to, and there are fair opponents that will be at that level. It's not a common opponent, though. There will be a lot more cases where the +1 to damage at first level is better than the +1 to hit (for a Paladin, at least, which is what the original discussion revolved around). Granted, to be clearer and more correct, I should have said "the overwhelming majority of level-appropriate opponents," rather than "all."

Of course, it's situational, though. Something like power attack is better against lower AC opponents than higher AC opponents, which was close to your original point--obviously true.

However, you incorrectly implied that vs an AC 20 Hobgoblin soldier, +1 to hit is better than +1 to damage, and you implied that this was clearly the case. In reality, it's about equal, depending on all of your stats, weapons, etc. I also overstated my case a bit to begin with.

 

[NorthSaber]

However, you incorrectly implied that vs an AC 20 Hobgoblin soldier, +1 to hit is better than +1 to damage, and you implied that this was clearly the case. In reality, it's about equal, depending on all of your stats, weapons, etc. I also overstated my case a bit to begin with.

I haven't ran any simulations or extensive playtests but I find this hard to believe. We've played 4e something like three sessions, so my experience is limited, but so far about 80% of the enemies we've encountered have been minions, against whom the damage is irrelevant.

The more bad-ass enemies have been on the receiving end of our encounter- and daily abilities, which are only cool if they hit, and often have other effects besides simple damage.

At very low levels, damage has more impact - so to speak - than chance to hit, but the margin becomes narrower the higher the target's AC gets. Attack bonuses increase slower, if I have understood correctly, than enemy defenses, so sooner or later attack bonuses will trump damage bonuses. (Plus nobody wants to miss with their dailies or encounter-powers...)

 

[Darkthorne]

KD,
For losing the turn I was referring to the Warlord not attacking & still leaving myself open to being hit. Also in my case I have the higher Str than our fighter (he's con higher than I). While his fighter is probably close to equal terms as me for hitting things, against certain foes my attack vs Fort is easier to hit with (yes I know I need to hit) could give his 1st lvl daily a +10 to hit & damage of 25 plus me doing my 3 damage originally for 28 against the target. That's +3 to hit AC & 8 extra damage on average for a 1st level daily, 1st lvl encounter powers work to be about the same damage but gain the +3 anyhow. I would upgrade this power (CS) if you could use it at range or if any melee at will could be used with it (opening its usefulness to non high str PC's as well).