The Retaking of Forgehold OOC-4E (Full)

[Shalimar]

This post contains the quotes, and has a link to the wotc boards. I strongly disagree with the ruling since I feel it goes against the intent of the rules, but I'll stop using the stealth skill via allies for cover. Under this interpretation of the rules I feel that ranged rogues are pretty much crippled leaving only melee rogues able to access sneak attack reliably (and thus able to fufill the striker role) even if it is much more dangerous.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Without getting into the rules anymore and just considering tactics;

IMO...

In the previous rooms, the coffin allowed pretty much at-will cover for ranged stealth purpose for the whole fight. Some maps are very stealth friendly and there will be more.

In the current one, it's harder yet the wall in the middle is rather helpful to gain cover. Standing at E12 for example gives both LOS and cover against all monsters on the platform.

Heck, right now the boulder can be used for cover from D4 for the same purpose.

I know everyone can see this. I'm just pointing out that it's not so hard to gain cover options. Of course if you have to move 3 square to get there, you get -5 to stealth, but a rogue can get an at-will power to cancel that as soon as level 2 (Talking about Fleeting Ghost; a ranged rogue's best friend until they discover Shadow Stride).

Also, Shalimar's quote of Mearls mentioned an amusing fact; The movement that is part of the 'deft strike' at-will power is also part of the attack. Therefore it can be used to pop out of cover to gain LOS against an enemy and attack him while maintaining stealth until the end of the attack. Very neat. Basically you can stand behind pretty much any availbale cover to make your stealth check. Then, even if your location doesn't have LOS to your indented target, you can use deft strike to pop out 2 square and gain that LOS. Shoot him and then move back to cover. Rinse and repeat.

Finally, melee is always available to a rogue even if he is focused on range since his powers are all dex based and most allows for both melee and ranged weapon. So if the map is just too unfriendly for stealth, and it's a DM's right to have a 'killing field' type of Map once in a while, you can switch gears and try for more melee for a while. We have several powers that can help in that regard; beside the defender's mark, Mal has covering strike and Aelek has several options to help the rogue.

If a defender is sometime forced to throw an axe, it's no big deal if a ranged rogue is sometime forced to use melee.

All in all, combining all those points, I'm sure a concerted effort can keep the sneak attack coming without relying on hiding behind a buddy. If you miss them once in a while, you catch up to the other striker with additional damage when you do get it. I know you don't like this argument, but in a five round fight, you can beat Angel's 5D6 of additional potential damage by getting just three sneak opportunity for 6D6. Scrounge a fourth and your the damage king.

 

[Shalimar]

No being close and flanking really isn't ok, using ranged attacks up close provokes OAs each time I do it, so doing it is suicide. Ranged rogues will not have the AC to be up close, at least Mira doesn't at only a 16, I can bump it by taking shield proficiency next level but that means no backstabber so less damage. Even then its only a +1 for a 17, 18 with the level bonus. You'd be at 20 I think? Defenders are built for melee, rogues aren't as durable.

Beyond that though the other issue is HP and healing surges. Mira is already running pretty low (3/7) and that is without engaging in melee, I expect her life epectancy will drop pretty heavily at that point. With the low AC and durability melee even with melee weapons is not a good idea.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

No being close and flanking really isn't ok, using ranged attacks up close provokes OAs each time I do it, so doing it is suicide.

You can't flank at all with a ranged weapon so that's not what I meant. I was talking about stabbing the target with your dagger in melee (minor action to draw), for which you have +8 to attack (+10 with the combat advantage). If you use piercing strike, you target reflex which is typically 3 point lower than AC which gives you, I believe, the highest chances of hitting of the team. Just look at the monsters we are facing and see what +10 against reflex gives you. That's about 4 points better than when you throw a shuriken with combat advanatge in most case. If you target a guy that is already wounded, odds are good you kill him altogether and don't have to worry about his reply.

If you target in melee a guy that is marked (Which you always should when risking melee), the enemy gets -2 to attack you so your effective AC bumps up to 18, same as Tel, better than Aelek's and one short of Mal. Plus, if he attacks you, he takes 7hp of damage or an attack of opportunity, depending on whether he was marked by Tel or Mal. Often, he won't risk it, or gets killed trying it.

Plus, as I said, we have powers to help you. If you flank something with Mal and don't kill it, Mal can use covering strike next before the enemy attacks you. Worst case scenario, Mal misses and the target is marked. Best case scenario, you shift two free square away and he can't attack you at all.

Aelek aslo has a few trick up his sleeve, I expect.

I'm not saying it's your primary option, not at all. It is certainly more dangerous and a rogue built for melee would have things like toughness and hide armor to help himself that a ranged rogue doesn't have. But if cover is slim on the ground, it certainly can be a very good option when used judiciously. In fact, in certain situation it is tactically smarter to attack in melee than at range, despite being built for range. For example, If we really need to finish a powerful monster that we know is low on HP, should a flanking option be prsent it can be much better risking moving next to him and doing +10 piercing strike against (14 REF) than risking a stealth check and shooting a shuriken +9 (18 AC) if you suceed.

Deft strike is also top notch for that. Use the free two squares to close the gap, attack, shift away. If the target is makred by a fighter he can't follow you.

(Do you have deft strike or Riposte strike? I don't remember but I hope you have deft strike. It's even better for range than melee. Meanwhile riposte works only on melee and depends on strenght)

All I'm saying is that it's a powerful tool in your repertoire if used right. They designed the rogue in such a way that even if you focus on range, you always have solid melee options.

 

[SarahRequiem]

Hey Mal, I was just looking at your character sheet on first page, and I spotted a mistake. Instead of having +8 to hit and +4 to damages, you should hav e+7 to hit and +5 to damage. Weapon focus gives a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls now, not attack rolls.

 

[Shalimar]

Actually, you can't flank at all with a ranged weapon.

Incorrect. All that flanking requires is that the creature has an enemy adjacent to it on each side. Here is the requirements, note that weapons are not mentioned at all, the only requirement is the correct positioning.

Opposite Sides: To flank an enemy, you and an ally must be adjacent to the enemy and on opposite sides or corners of the enemy’s space. When in doubt about whether two characters flank an enemy, trace an imaginary line between the centers of the characters’ squares. If the line passes through opposite sides or corners of the enemy’s space, the enemy is flanked.

So yes, you can use ranged weapons when flanking, but using ranged weapons in melee provokes OAs making it very foolish to do so.

As to the rest, that doesn't fix the issue of Mira's low durability. I'll figure something out I guess.​

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Hey Mal, I was just looking at your character sheet on first page, and I spotted a mistake. Instead of having +8 to hit and +4 to damages, you should hav e+7 to hit and +5 to damage. Weapon focus gives a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls now, not attack rolls.

I reach +8 due to a class feature; I get +1 with all one handed weapon as a fighter.

 

[SarahRequiem]

ah, right. but youre missing +1 to damage then

+4 strength +1 weapon focus.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Incorrect. All that flanking requires is that the creature has an enemy adjacent to it on each side. Here is the requirements, note that weapons are not mentioned at all, the only requirement is the correct positioning.

Heh. Seems you are right.

Still, I never meant for you to do that, obviously. Just draw a dagger and sucker punch the bastard.

As to the rest, that doesn't fix the issue of Mira's low durability. I'll figure something out I guess.[/LEFT]

Well, actually that was directly what I was adressing.

I know you won't want to flank as a standard tactic but I gave you several examples of how you can get your melee sneak attack in and then move away before your opponent can even get a chance to strike back.

And the whole point of marking is to increase the durability of nearby companions.

Just try a flanking piercing strike against a bloodied enemy once in a while if it doesn't seem too dangerous, especially if Mal is nearby and still has his covering strike encounter power or if Telsayin has challenged that opponent. I think you'll be pleased by the results.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

ah, right. but youre missing +1 to damage then

+4 strength +1 weapon focus.

But I don't have weapon focus anymore. It's still on my sheet?

I took Toughness, And superior weapon (Bastard sword).

Weapon focus will be for level 2 or 4.