The Misalignment of the Gods

[Andor]

Is it just me or are the Alignment of the Gods in the PHB not very well thought out?

Consider that the definition of Lawful Good in the alignment section is Civilization and Order. The God of civilization and order is ... unaligned. Yet the god of agriculture, which allows order and civilization, is Good.

Avandra, who might as well be the Goddess of Chaos, ... is good.

Corellon whose tennents are 'Create beauty' and 'Fight evil' ... is unaligned.

Melora whose tennents amount to 'kill anything on two legs' is unaligned.

For that matter we have what amounts to 4 gods of Chaos: Avandra, Kord, Melora and Sehanine, all of whom are unaligned.

Two Gods of order. Moradin and Erathis. Erathis, who is all about a better life for the most people, is unaligned. Moradin, who sounds like the god of the Stoics, is LG.

Two Gods of Valor. Bahamut and Kord. Bahamut who is all about honor, valor and protection of the weak is LG. Kord is all about kicking butt, but not so much valor and protection is Unaligned.

Pelor is basically the god of not starving to death. He's good. The Raven Queen is the goddess of death and she is unaligned.

Ioun is all about education and preservation and opposing evil. Also unaligned.

If the Gods were actually lined up correctly to the alignments as they are defined it should go:

Avandra - Unaligned
Bahamut - Good
Corellon - Good
Erathis - Lawful Good
Ioun - Good
Kord - Unaligned
Melora - Unaligned at best. As written Evil or even CE are closer.
Moradin - As written? Unaligned.
Pelor - Good
Raven Queen - Unaligned
Sehanine - Unaligned at best.

So by my reckoning (which can be argued of course but defending the Unaligned tag on Erathis is really hard) seven out of eleven gods have the wrong alignments.

Personally I suspect that the alignment system was finalized late in the design process and the Gods were assigned alignments in a great hurry, which is really the only way to explain why all the CG gods were shoved to Unaligned, except Avandra for some reason.

Discussion?

 

[malraux]

OOO alignment debates are always sensical with everyone on the same page.[/sarcasm]

Avandra, who might as well be the Goddess of Chaos, ... is good.

Change is not a synonym of chaos. Really, the 4e understanding of chaos is closer to an idea of entropy than to changes of a system.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Personally I suspect that the alignment system was finalized late in the design process and the Gods were assigned alignments in a great hurry, which is really the only way to explain why all the CG gods were shoved to Unaligned, except Avandra for some reason.

Or gods are more complex than these threads would suggest.

 

[jdrakeh]

Or gods are more complex than these threads would suggest.

Heavenly figures not being easily forced into little, pre-defined, boxes? Perish the thought! I've always thought that the various D&D deities showcased well the limitations of rigid alignment definitions (I was somewhat sad to see that 4e didn't drop alignment altogether).

IMO, D&D gods have always leaned one of two ways due to the need for designers to attempt the aformentioned forced categorization -- they've either been entirely unremarkable in terms of personality, or failing that, they've been entirely at odds with their appointed alignment.

I like the idea that gods are gods and, therefore, can't easily be defined or understood by mortal beings. In my games, alignment simply doesn't apply to real gods. I don't like to boil my gods' motives down to a boring, one-dimensional, text book entry.

 

[SSquirrel]

Avandra, who might as well be the Goddess of Chaos, ... is good.

Fight for freedom and liberty, sounds "good" to me.

Corellon whose tennents are 'Create beauty' and 'Fight evil' ... is unaligned.

Actually it's fight Lolth specifically. Patron of beauty, the arts and those who view magic as an art. That all sounds erlatively neutral to me, minus the "kill Lolth" bit

Melora whose tennents amount to 'kill anything on two legs' is unaligned.

Uhm...where do you get that? Untamed nature, wild and calm...this all speaks of balance and the indiscriminant ways of nature. Definitely unaligned.

For that matter we have what amounts to 4 gods of Chaos: Avandra, Kord, Melora and Sehanine, all of whom are unaligned.

Glory and renown need no alignment and he's another nature sort of god like Melora, specifically for storms.

Two Gods of order. Moradin and Erathis. Erathis, who is all about a better life for the most people, is unaligned. Moradin, who sounds like the god of the Stoics, is LG.

Judges worship Erathis. Judges are supposed to be unbiased. The law doesn't care if you are a pauper or filthy rich, you are all subject to its impartial nature. Moradin...ok they wanted a 2nd LG god Guardians and protectors have good shots at being eitehr good or lawful, maybe both.

Two Gods of Valor. Bahamut and Kord. Bahamut who is all about honor, valor and protection of the weak is LG. Kord is all about kicking butt, but not so much valor and protection is Unaligned.

Talked about Kord already, but isn't valor another word for glory? Bahamut has always been LG and the description is accurate for him.

Pelor is basically the god of not starving to death. He's good. The Raven Queen is the goddess of death and she is unaligned.

Alleviate suffering, kindness and compassion, kill undead and be watchful against evil. Sounds good. Death is another neutral party like nature. Undeath is unnatural and to be abolished, much like Melora wants Aberrations killed.

Ioun is all about education and preservation and opposing evil. Also unaligned.

Knowledge can be used for good or evil and has no inherent alignment of its own, it all depends how it is used. Veca of course works actively against everything Ioun stands for, so keep his guys in check.

So by my reckoning (which can be argued of course but defending the Unaligned tag on Erathis is really hard) seven out of eleven gods have the wrong alignments.

Personally I suspect that the alignment system was finalized late in the design process and the Gods were assigned alignments in a great hurry, which is really the only way to explain why all the CG gods were shoved to Unaligned, except Avandra for some reason.

Discussion?

I guess I'll take the arguing part up for ya I think you're right about alignments and their place in the game tho. Kinda seems like they had removed them entirely even maybe and decided that was one hamburger they would get lynched for serving. LG and CE are just too iconic for them to get rid of so they kept them and basically anything that wasn't pretty screamingly biased became unaligned. Which makes sense to me given the way it is spread now. Alignment is a series of points on a single line, not the traditional cross-section.

Maybe we just need the Donnie Darko alignment system heh.

EDIT:Wow 3 responses while I was typing mine up

(I was somewhat sad to see that 4e didn't drop alignment altogether).

I completely agree. I loved the lack of alignment in AE

 

[Snoweel]

Alignment discussions will always lead to conflict mostly because people can no longer agree on what 'good' and 'evil' mean - witness the strong right/left political divide.

We have:

Rights vs responsibilites
The good of the individual vs the good of society
Freedom vs security
Change vs stability
Ends vs means
Diversity vs unity

etc, etc, etc...

Ultimately, alignment debates become political debates.

It is for this reason I'm locking this thread.

 

[jdrakeh]

It is for this reason I'm locking this thread.

Impersonating mods is not advised (though you do make a good point).

 

[Snoweel]

Impersonating mods is not advised (though you do make a good point).

I think you'll find they're impersonating me.

But I'm sincerely flattered.

 

[Rakor]

I was intensely happy that Erathis is unaligned. It is one of my favorite fluffy things in 4th. Civilization can be good or evil. Subjugating indiginous people and clearcutting their forests for farms are some of the less good aspects which fall under the civ portfolio. I also like unaligned gods in general. I love that gods care only about their portfolios and don't care how mortals assign ethical values to their actions.

 

[frankthedm]

Erathis, who is all about a better life for the most people, is unaligned.

Erathis would have been the pinup girl for the Fomian's version of Lawful Neutral, had it still been around. Unaligned is a very good fit, for the new alignment standard. She is the patron of the city, and thus also the patron of the angry mob, galvanized in it's goal for good or ill.

She tolerates the people at the bottom of social order have their lives used to grease the gears of civilization and turns a blind eye to tyrants' implementation of order until their excesses lead to successful revolutions.

Erathis is probably on fairly decent terms with Bane given just how expansionist She is. She only says conquer the wilderness, though if Bane inspired Leader is planning to wipe out a elven settlement which has stood in the way of 'The Empire' for centuries, don't color me surprised if She inspires a Bane follower to devise a new siege engine for the task.