Why do people hate Elfkind?

[Steely Dan]

Glad we do agree about the annoying proliferation of Elf subraces

But Biker Elves were cool!

 

[Byronic]

Why are you interested in this question?

I ask because I'd hate to think that someone was just stirring, yet it isn't clear to me what you hope to get out of this discussion.

From the way you phrase the question it doesn't seem that you hate races of elves, and although some people do, other people don't - which sets up the potential argument.

Even your closing clause isn't really helpful, since I imagine that most people who do hate elves have already changed them until they like them (or ruled them out of the game, or whatever).

So please, if there is more to your question please state it openly and without attempting to lay judgements against the people you are talking too!

Thanks

Hello Plane Sailing,

Why am I interested? Well, since you seem so curious I'll tell you. Remember a while back I was considering to replace Tieflings with Melniboneans? Well while solving that problem I decided to do something about Elves and Eladrin as well. Don't take me wrong, I loved them in Third Edition, but we were promised quite a bit more in the previews for fourth edition. So I decided to recreate them.

I solved quite a few strange things about Elves. I solved their aging problem. I explained why Elves haven't conquered the world with magic. I gave them a unique psychology, identity and worldview. No longer could people mistake them for humans with pointy ears. They were proper fey, bound by laws, mores and convention that were alien to human sensibilities. They don't even have a biology as humans understand it. I had originally planned to post that but your forum decided that it rather preferred to eat it up. I have yet to type it out again.

However, before I unleashed my creation on my players I needed to gain other perspectives on the matter. Which answers your next point, what I wanted to get out of it. So far we've learned that a lot of people disliked the sheer amount of races Elves have, their snooty manner, some of the players that play them and a lack of "connection". While most of the points have little to do with my version of them the last one brings forth an important point. While as a race they are well written, how many players can truly play something non-human?

As for the rest of your post, in hindsight my question seems to have done it's job quite nicely, and if this post

Actually, I was curious about this phenomenon as well, and this thread has been pretty informative.

is anything to go by I can say it has been a win-win situation for us all.

Hoping the weather is nice up there in Harpenden,

Byronic

 

[Klaus]

Meat Loaf had good stuff in the seventies.

It's not elves that created elf-hate.

It was elf-players.

This.

Elf-players tend to act arrogantly, patronizing and demeaning the other characters.

Elf-loving DMs and authors write elves as being better at everything (for an example, look at the Return of the King extended edition, where the elf wins a DRINKING contest against the dwarf).

 

[Klaus]

If only that were true.

Two words: Valley Elf.

To be fair, Valley Elves were originally from Greyhawk (where they lived in the Valley of the Mage and served the Mage there).

 

[radferth]

I'd argue that elves are all about the sex. Given how we have a race of half-elves, and all those sub races, and well, I won't get into the elf porn on the internet...

That's good, because the internet is no place for porn.

 

[hong]

That's good, because the internet is no place for porn.

I'm not going to post that WoW clip, and you can't make me!

 

[Vigilance]

I cant explain WHY, but I do know it goes way back. I remember there was a fantasy RPG in the 1e era (name escapes me) whose tagline in their Dragon Magazine ads was NO ELVES.

I think in 1e the hate was based on how cheesy and broken multi-classing was, and since elves could TRIPLE CLASS they were clearly the munchkin-iest of the munchkins.

After that, I think Drow, and later most especially Drizzt really stoked the fire.

And yes, Drow are the triple-class 1e level of cheese in 3e.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Because 3e had this habit of "Elves that live by a river- we'll call them Elf (River) and put them in an MM!" subrace bloat.

This was a hold-over from 2e (the elf-lovingest edition), not a 3e thing, and was necessary to kind of preserve in 3e because the designers didn't want to exclude people who really totally loved what elves were in 2e (and they are out there, those people).

And now in 4e, there are even more elf sub-races, even in the PH. And there's a lot of space dedicated to variant drow, eladrin, and elves in the MM.

No, 4e has a lot of the sick elf-love, too. 3e at least brought other races up to "par" with the elves (arguably making elves one of the weaker races due ot the Con penalty). 4e, thankfully, seems to preserve the balance.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Looking into the article that gave me the reference you were making, on wikipedia, more than half of the page is "Elves in the Forgotten Realms" and features aquatic, winged, dark or drow, lythari, moon, star, sun, wild, and wood elves.

Aquatic, drow, wild and wood elves all started off in Greyhawk. And don't forget the Valley Elves.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

To be fair, Valley Elves were originally from Greyhawk (where they lived in the Valley of the Mage and served the Mage there).

That was my point. Elf proliferation predates the Forgotten Realms.

Greyhawk also gave us the drow, gray elves, high elves, wood elves, sea elves and grugach/wild elves.