Judicious use and description of Minions [Edit-Now asking for stat analysis]

[ST]

My view is that taken as a given that there are opponents my character can defeat very quickly if he gets a hit on them, then that means my character's experienced enough in combat that they're able to tell which is which.

I don't know anything about swordfighting, but I would imagine that a well-trained swordsman can tell in a couple of seconds whether the person across from him is good enough to be "a fair fight" or whether they're not in his league. Certainly if the guy's running at you with the thing held over his head to chop at you, you can tell that he's not protecting himself.

I figure whatever "cue" it is that gives away what a minion is, it's easier to just accept that my character knows than to describe it out or have some kind of knowledge/skill roll. It's abstracted, sure, but that doesn't bother me.

 

[bardolph]

In general, I think it's fair to let players know which monsters are bigger threats. It's hard enough to be effective in combat even with good knowledge. Hiding information such as which monsters are minions from players will only force them to make mistakes (such as the rogue blowing his sneak attack on a minion), and cause the PCs to lose more often than they should.

 

[Switchback]

We should remember, the minion's 1 HP was not created for the purpose of mystery or better tactical gameplay, but simply to ease bookkeeping for the DM. But the wrench this throws into gameplay is luckily easily incorporated into the storyline of the game once everyone comes to the agreement and recognition that these creatures are your standard mooks or throwaway foils akin to thugs in a movie that a hero dispatches with great skill and panache. But for the whole thing to work, the heroes have to know they are mooks, excepting very special circumstances.

Because if one wanted to fairly add a sense of heroic randomness into combat, then it would have made far more sense to do something like not have minion's at all, but simply increase the standard creatures you will fight by a small handful but have those monsters slain instantly on a expanded critical hit (i.e. every natural 18, 19 or 20 that hits).

That way you could fairly plan against all creatures equally, and not have any fear of the silly dress up foes who might expend you resources in the wrong place or cause you to blow a battle simply because someone guesssed wrongly that something was a minion.

That design choice, though more fair to players, does nothing to really cut down the bookkeeping of the DM. So it doesn't work as well as the Minion mechanic they went with. A mechanic that however requires the players to be in on the gig for it to really add more good than bad to the game.

 

[Switchback]

I might not have been clear. I mean to question if 4 kobold minions are equivalent to 1 kobold skirmisher/soldier.

I actually would fully expect 4 minions to be more of a challenge to a *defender* than 1 standard creature of the same type for the reason you pointed out or at least hinted at.

I believe the Minion was created, in part, to enhance the role of the controller and give him a need in the party that was somewhat not fully addressed when the Wizard (as yet the only controller), had to be retooled and toned down for 4e.

 

[Mongo1967]

I'm pretty sure there was a Customer Service clarification that stated that Minions do not benefit from Temporary HP.

 

[Jasperak]

Remember, however, that the minions can flank, both for each other and for their bigger allies. They also clog up the battlefield quite effectively, and it's easier for them to swarm past the fighter and get to the squishy characters in the back. The tactical value of minions makes up for their slight inferiority in terms of raw damage output.

The numbers from my earlier post show that 4 minions will do more damage to the 1 defender than 1 soldier will and the minions do it one round faster. Add in the tactical advantages you mentioned above and they are quite formidable. So much so I cannot imagine having the party face a large group of minions and not making it clear if they are minions or not.

And I cannot see a reason to allow them double the amount of hits taken before they go down. Grant them the temporary hit points and I bet statistically they can come close taking an equal level defender down.

@Switchback-That might explain why our party's 3e tactics of fighter holding the line by taking down the lighter combatants and the wizard softening up the BBG failed miserably. The new tactics are the Controllers over Minions and Defenders over Brutes and Soldiers. A slug fest for wizards due to numbers and for defenders due to hit points.

 

[Jasperak]

Because if one wanted to fairly add a sense of heroic randomness into combat, then it would have made far more sense to do something like not have minion's at all, but simply increase the standard creatures you will fight by a small handful but have those monsters slain instantly on a expanded critical hit (i.e. every natural 18, 19 or 20 that hits).

That way you could fairly plan against all creatures equally, and not have any fear of the silly dress up foes who might expend you resources in the wrong place or cause you to blow a battle simply because someone guesssed wrongly that something was a minion.

That design choice, though more fair to players, does nothing to really cut down the bookkeeping of the DM. So it doesn't work as well as the Minion mechanic they went with. A mechanic that however requires the players to be in on the gig for it to really add more good than bad to the game.

Consider this idea taken.

 

[Mongo1967]

Because if one wanted to fairly add a sense of heroic randomness into combat, then it would have made far more sense to do something like not have minion's at all, but simply increase the standard creatures you will fight by a small handful but have those monsters slain instantly on a expanded critical hit (i.e. every natural 18, 19 or 20 that hits).

You'll have to forgive me for saying so bluntly, but I think this is an awful idea on a number of levels. From a gamist perspective, it distorts the EXP value, meaning that you'd have to completely redesign the EXP/encounter engine. Also, it would cause the game to be ruled by randomness in a way that would cripple the challenge of virtually every encounter. Brutes would be useless. (If you don't believe me, take note of when this would occur in your regular game. I think you'll be surprised.) Twin Strike would have a whopping 30% to kill anything each round. That's terrible balance and design.

While the narrativist seemingly doesn't care (random deaths make good story), it would happen so often - but never to the PC's - that it would rapidly become passe and boring. Mowing your enemies down like wheat is only epic when having attained that ability is the culmination of an epic story. Winning through sheer luck is so much less exciting. (Actually, I can't imagine a primarily narrativist group liking this mechanic, as they tend to turn every battle into an ode, at least in my experience.)

The simulationist would rail against the fact that this mechanic is disastrously one-sided and that it fails to make the game more realistic.

Information on GNS Theory can be found at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNS_Theory

When I run an encounter with minions, I make sure that I describe the enemies in a way that points out the leaders, elites and solos. I don't make the minions obvious unless the PC's spend the time making skill checks. There's also an unspoken understanding at my table that too much metagaming spoils the game for all of us. This has worked well so far.

 

[Switchback]

Mongo and Jas. The expanded crit idea was simply an example and not intended as any sort of mathematical tested way to equalize the minion mechanic! I would do a lot of playtesting and tweaking before instituting anything like that. Though there probably *is* a reasonable alternative along those lines if someone truly hates them the way they are.

The point of the example was only to show that Minions as created were made with 1 HP for a specific reason - ease of use - and not to trick players or make combats more confusing or random. Which is exactly what Minions do if the players do not have a easy way to identify them.

Especially as a controller, I find it’s a ‘awful idea’ for DM’s to play them as simply identical to normal creatures, but who just happen to fall in one hit. Even the developers suggest against doing that. They are merely 'mooks' filling the same role as weaker lower level creatures did in past editions, and should be recognizable as such.

Because in the case they are not, the game begins to be ruled by the same randomness that cripples encounters in the way Mongo alleged in my example, ("Oops did I target the 5 'real' orcs instead of the minions, sorry, I guess were going to die because I guessed wrong"). If Minions are however fairly easy to discern, regardless if by skill checks descriptions or what not, I am fine with them as is.

They were given separate equipment, powers and suggested descriptions for a reason. Precisely, for the very fact that they are not supposed to be dummy or cardboard versions of brutes or soldiers, and as such, should in most cases be quickly identified by veteran adventurers in the same way that they can tell the difference between a Flaming Skeleton and a common skeleton or a Brute Ogre and a Shaman Ogre.

 

[LazarusLong42]

A couple of quick thoughts:

Having the temporary HP boost minon HP is a significant effect, especially at lower levels where players might only do 3 or 4 damage even with an encounter power. It also defeats the design purpose of minions, which is to save the DM bookkeeping when he's running a crazy cinematic encounter with a few dozen mooks.

While explicitly describing minions as "minions" seems a bit meta-gamey, I think making certain the players have a high chance to determine whether some of the enemies are minions is important. Either describe them differently (if the players aren't paying attention to the descriptions, well, that's their fault) or make Insight/Perception/Knowledge rolls behind the screen for them.

On "hiding:" Hiding a "real" enemy in amongst the mooks seems fair. Players won't waste their encounter powers on anyone in that group until they've realized that one of those apparent minions isn't going down easily. However, hiding a minion in among the "real" enemies would be highly disingenuous and break the spirit of the minion idea.