D&D 4E Just played my first 4E game

[Jack99]

Jack99, you are _not_ supposed to kill your players! That's illegal, even in your country! Everyone else, remember this: Do not kill your players - even if it's easy, like with poisoning their food supplies or something. Just don't!

Argh, I said too much there I think.. *hopes they can't trace him via his ISP*

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

That will indeed be what people have to do, because the design isn't finished if we have to make up excuses for their rules.

The design is finished. But the development could have been been better, like putting a little more explanation in the "game theory" behind into the book. Maybe they could have removed a few of those boring "what-is-role-playing-and-how-do-I-do-it" stuff - 3E didn't need that much exposition, either! Everyone knew what role-playing was...

Okay, a little more serious:
I always enjoy if the designers and writers talk more about the "behind-the-scene" of rules. I think my initial dislike of the Vancian magic or hit points for example would have been greatly reduced if the designers were more verbose on why the rules use these "unrealistic" or arbitrary concepts and what benefits they gave to the game.

 

[Fenes]

If a cooldown is long enough in an MMO, it becomes an encounter ability. For most fights, that's 60+ seconds. Certainly the 5 minutes cooldowns qualify as encounter powers for all but raid boss fights. And once we reach cooldowns of an hour or more, we have very clearly a daily power.

 

[Nightchilde-2]

Not quite true. There is the disease track mechanic which you can adapt for broken bones or other lasting injuries you care to name.

...

Y'know what, THAT is an awesome idea. STOLEN!

 

[AtomicPope]

I actually believe there is something to the statement that 4E feels like a video game. I don't think it has anything to do with the necessity (or lack thereof) of a DM or the difficulty in tracking modifiers. I have heard this from a number of people when they first try 4E - and these are folks that

a) don't read ENworld or any rpg website so they aren't being influenced by 4E haters

and

b) aren't lifelong players - most having started with 3E or 3.5E

I will have to ask them why they got that impression. It would be interesting to find out if there is a common element (or elements) that causes this upon first playing 4E

Doesn't matter what forum they peruse or fail to. It's become a talking point for discussing 4e. Everyone says "video game." They don't say what video game. Is it Balder's Gate? Never Winter Nights? Never Winter Nights II?

The video game comment is just a bogus talking point like so many others that mire version discourse.

 

[Fenes]

Doesn't matter what forum they peruse or fail to. It's become a talking point for discussing 4e. Everyone says "video game." They don't say what video game. Is it Balder's Gate? Never Winter Nights? Never Winter Nights II?

The video game comment is just a bogus talking point like so many others that mire version discourse.

I'd say the VG comments are not bogus. The problem is that D&D's strength lies not in a combat as streamlined as an MMOG's, but in what a Computer can't provide. And while there are important things on the combat side a computer can't provide - mainly, intelligent enemies and flexible combats and solutions - I feel 4E is selling itself short by neglecting the out of combat aspects, an area CVGs are incredibly lacking. That may be corrected with upcoming books I hope.

 

[AtomicPope]

I'd say the VG comments are not bogus. The problem is that D&D's strength lies not in a combat as streamlined as an MMOG's, but in what a Computer can't provide. And while there are important things on the combat side a computer can't provide - mainly, intelligent enemies and flexible combats and solutions - I feel 4E is selling itself short by neglecting the out of combat aspects, an area CVGs are incredibly lacking. That may be corrected with upcoming books I hope.

You'd say it's not bogus and you'd be wrong.

Example: What video game? You never bothered saying - just like I said in my post. Thanks for making this so easy

Neglecting out-of-combat aspects how? Again, no example. Fourth edition is the only edition thus far to have fast-and-hard rules for rewarding roleplaying with experience points. Then there's skill challenges (exp for non-combat). There's quest rewards (narrative exp). Too easy

 

[Ginnel]

The only video game any bit of 4th ed is like is Final Fantasy tactics/Disgaea (controlling a group of guys against the enemy usually 6ish) that kind of game and thats the combat bit of 4th edition, moving people squares and using one of their powers is pretty similar.

The only other reason the other editions didn't feel like that is even the fighters and thieves had numerous things they could do in the video games.

Everything else however not like a video game, Skill system is same as always in my opinion, same with the roleplaying its still the same.
What you do get with 4th edition is a partly fleshed out new campaign setting, but if you don't care for it feel free to use your old stuff.

 

[Grimstaff]

• PLAYS LIKE A VIDEO GAME:

• NERFING OF CLASSES (ESP WIZARDS)

• WHETHER OR NOT I'M ALLOWED TO DIS 4th EDITION

4E feels much more like roll-playing than role-playing.


it's far too hard to die.

These are the points that turn a "review" into "edition wars" and get everyone on your case:

"Plays like a video game" - this one is insulting to P&P fans, for whatever reason, and no more true of 4E than any other RPG.

"Nerfing of Classes" - this one gets people's feathers riled because no one can tell this from one or two sessions. Its an assumption, and not based on a full range of play-testing.

"I'm allowed to dis 4th Edition" - actually, we're trying to move past edition wars, and focus on positive aspects of gaming (though we all slip up, me included).

"4E feels much more like roll-playing than role-playing" - here's another one guaranteed to rile people up. 4E has no more or less role-palying than any other RPG. Not being able to RP in 4E or 3E or "old brown box" is a personal problem, not an edition problem.

"its far too hard to die" - like class nerfing, this is assumption not based on very much role-play, and the exact opposite of many people's experieces. Another point guaranteed to get some heated response.

I very rarely see 4E fans go after someone for pointing out specific rules or problems that need to be addressed, but many of the above rote complaints are tired and obviously based more on pre-conceived notions than actual play experience.

Listing 2 or 3 weak attempts at "positive" points of 4E and then the same old laundry list of complaints that have been posted here against 4E since last august is not a review.

 

[Fenes]

You'd say it's not bogus and you'd be wrong.

Example: What video game? You never bothered saying - just like I said in my post. Thanks for making this so easy

MMOGs. If you ever played EQ1, EQ2, or any of the other fantasy games, you'd notice the similarities. It's not a bad thing per se, but it's there. Emphasised by the - generally a good idea - balanced combat prowess of all characters.

Neglecting out-of-combat aspects how? Again, no example. Fourth edition is the only edition thus far to have fast-and-hard rules for rewarding roleplaying with experience points. Then there's skill challenges (exp for non-combat). There's quest rewards (narrative exp). Too easy

Not enough out of combat material in the books. Less skills, no crafting mechanics. And the skill challenges, while a god idea, are broken in the implementation, therefore they don't offer anything more than 3E did, since you need to use several single skill checks to re-engineer the challenges if you want them to work mathematically.