D&D 4E Just played my first 4E game

[Raven Crowking]

I could say that your points only make sense if you have the rules define the gameworld, instead of having what you describe defining the gameworld.

The simulationist argument is that the rules should be strong enough to model the world in a way that, if characters are acting within the parameters that the rules encourage, their behaviour still passes a "reasonable person" standard.

It is easy to claim limitations on magic, because the workings of magic are a construct of the rules alone. However, if you stripped all magic from the system, the resolution of mundane tasks should be comprehensible from a real world, "reasonable person" standard.

The more mundane tasks begin to resemble magic, the more video-gamey it feels. This is because, in video games, mundane tasks are performed at the mercy of the programmer (rather than what would be reasonable for the character under the circumstances).

Under the aforementioned hp paradigm, the character is attempting to defeat his foe every round. The game mechanics support this, and determine exactly what odds he has of success. Likewise if the player decides that the
character should attempt to trip or disarm. What determines what the character attempts is what the player deems reasonable at the time, based upon his understanding of the situation at hand. If a thing was possible at 4 am this morning, it is still possible at 8 pm that night, even if the character has already done it several times that day. If Errol Flynn disarms the Sherrif of Nottingham by stabbing him in the arm at noon, the Sherrif's henchman isn't able to dismiss the possibility of Flynn doing the same to him immediately thereafter.


RC

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Wizards have been seriously neutered. With this 'daily powers', 'encounter powers', 'powers at will' system, one of the major advantages of the wizard - versatility - has been seriously curtailed. No longer can a wizard have a spellbook containing hundreds of useful spells and swap-and-change them for specific tasks - a sort of weapons package if you like. That was the great advantage of wizards over sorcerers in 3.5 - you chose either versatility or firepower.

For me, this is a feature. Wizards have been brought in line with the rest of the classes, and there's a lot less opportunity for the wizard to outclass everyone at the mid- to higher levels. And wizards are still more versatile than any of the other classes in terms of Daily and Utility choices.

Paths make no sense and are very constricting. They essentially force characters to conform to an archtype. I have always denied that classes do this, but paths sure do. There are other types of wizards besides war wizards and control wizards. Some wizards should be able to be just...wizards.

Are you referring to the builds at the beginning of the class sections? That's simple advice, much the same way 3rd edition offered sample characters for each class. You are free to use it or ignore it.

The classes don't cover what they ought to. I don't really miss the monk, but bards are sorely mourned. Warlords just don't fill the same role - in fact, I don't really see what the warlord brings to the game that a fighter couldn't.

Did anyone in your group play a Warlord? Did you read the Warlord chapter closely. If you think that Fighters can do what Warlords can, I suggest going back and taking a closer look. They are quite different.

Similarly, some of the races were poorly chosen. While I miss gnomes, my major gripes are the inclusion of the eladrins and the dragonborn. Eladrin are basically super-elves, and dragonborn just seem a tad too exotic to be a real player race.

This is more of a taste thing. I've never liked gnomes, nor have I ever seen one played, but I didn't knock older editions for having them.

Monsters seem way overpowered. At 1st level, we were fighting kobolds with 36 hit points. That's WAY too high, especially since we aren't really doing any more damage than we would under the old rules.

Again, this is a feature. 1st level monsters are not meant to be splattered in one hit, but are actually meant to be a challenge. Also, because the time it takes for a player to take his turn has been reduced, fights overall have been lengthened by increasing monster and PC hp. This is simply a different design feature. If you don't like it, you don't like it, but I don't get what's so wrong with having interesting and challenging experiences starting at level 1.

The whole thing plays like a video game. It seems like it's been designed to feel that way as well, to the point that while we were playing we kept asking our DM if we could 'save game' and at one point I cracked the group up when a player asked "how do I use this skill" and I answered "hold down B and press up." If I want to go play a video game, I'll go play one.

Can you highlight which aspects you thought "played like a video game"? I ask because the MMO comparisons are thrown about very readily by detractors. I played DAoC, Guild Wars, and WoW for years, and aside from the Points of Light setting and the new cosmology, I just don't see it.

There isn't enough to distinguish one character from another. Everybody's basically the same. There's not enough options to customise and vary your character.

I partially agree with this. I really would've liked to see more feats, and Magic Items relegated back to the DMG. In terms of the classes, I think we have tons of options, far more than individual classes in previous editions, with the exception of the wizard, who was not what I consider to be a model of quality class design. For a core book, there are a lot of choices; the designers had to strike a balance between lots of options and the important rules of the game. I think they did a pretty good job.

Sounds like you have a pretty specific idea of the kind of game you'd like to play. I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the game so much, but it seems more of a preferential thing than anything else. 4th edition has lots of options and strong rules. Those that I have played with have been impressed by the ease of character building, the dynamic combats, and the less rules-oriented take on roleplaying. It's been a good experience for me so far. Perhaps you will feel the same eventually, but if you don't that's ok too.

 

[Imaro]

Sure, at the metagame level.

My PC's name is Raldar. I have him do a Brute Strike on an early encounter. Later in the day, we fight some minions, and I smash them to bits.

In the gameworld, Raldar used the same maneuver each and every time.

And this works... except it really doens't. Alot of "powers" have very specific effects. Brute Strike is an easy one, how about Comeback Strike when you're about to die. Does explaining it as any other attack save your bacon when you get hit?

 

[Intense_Interest]

And this works... except it really doens't. Alot of "powers" have very specific effects. Brute Strike is an easy one, how about Comeback Strike when you're about to die. Does explaining it as any other attack save your bacon when you get hit?

"Raldar touched his helmet, and noticed that the slash only dented the metal. Shifting it around so that he could see, he made a strong attack."

Essentially, In the same way you explain that you can only move 6 spaces in an attack action or the Wizard can only ever cast his Daily spell once a day- with imagination.

 

[Imaro]

"Raldar touched his helmet, and noticed that the slash only dented the metal. Shifting it around so that he could see, he made a strong attack."

Essentially, In the same way you explain that you can only move 6 spaces in an attack action or the Wizard can only ever cast his Daily spell once a day- with imagination.

What are you talking about? Comeback Strike gives you the chance to spend a healing surge... thus you get more hit points at the end of it. Thus you survive against the blow that the goblin delivers next round. You can describe something else as it... but you still die when you get hit next round.

 

[LostSoul]

If a thing was possible at 4 am this morning, it is still possible at 8 pm that night, even if the character has already done it several times that day. If Errol Flynn disarms the Sherrif of Nottingham by stabbing him in the arm at noon, the Sherrif's henchman isn't able to dismiss the possibility of Flynn doing the same to him immediately thereafter.

Why would the henchman know the game rules - unless you want him to, and if that creates a problem for you, why would you want him to?

But anyways. Robin can stab him in the arm again in an attempt to disarm. Options you have off the top of my head:

• Stunt. You disarm him, but do no damage. The henchman blocks the stab but Robin is so awesome he disarms him anyway.
• Massive Damage. You kill him, so you disarm him by stabbing him in the arm and he runs away. Or his hand is cut off and he dies, your choice.
• Stunt + Action Point. You disarm him, do no damage, then make a regular attack. In the gameworld this looks like the same thing as Exorcism of Steel.
• Regular Attack. You attempt to disarm him, and end up stabbing him in the arm, but his grip is good enough that he doesn't let go. (i.e. He has too many hps.)

 

[LostSoul]

And this works... except it really doens't. Alot of "powers" have very specific effects. Brute Strike is an easy one, how about Comeback Strike when you're about to die. Does explaining it as any other attack save your bacon when you get hit?

Action Point for Second Wind + an attack. I can do that more than once per day.

I attacked last round + Second Wind this round. It took me a little longer to get back on my feet, but I still did it.

Second Wind. I missed in the attack, but I still get pissed off enough to get an adrenaline surge. This is an easy one - I swing, hit his armour, and scream in rage!

Second Wind + Warlord's Favour. I heal, then attack. Slightly reversed, same deal - my hatred pushes me on.

Regular Attack + Inspiring Word.

I'm sure there are other ways to do the same thing using other resources.

 

[AllisterH]

re: Encounter powers
I'm almost positive I've seen a post from Mearls mentioning why the encounter system doesn't have a recharge mechanic a la ToB.

Something about not wanting to have a subgame of "do I recharge or not this round".

The funny thing is I've always seen the TRIP schtick of constantly doing it as pure "Fighting Game" videogame schtick. I mean, when some Ryu scrub releases Hadoken constantly for the whole match, that to me reminded me so much of the Improved Trip mechanic.

Even then, the Improved Trip was worse in that at least in a videogame, even the bloody computer would figure out in the same match how to get around the hadokens. Not so with Improved Trip.

re: Non-combat focus
Craft in 3.x only told you how long it took to build something whereas Profession told you how much money you got a week. I'm not sure where the BOOKS themselves encourage "roleplaying" with these skills.

This is DMs going beyond the scope of the actual rules which is admirable but doesn't say anything about the rules themselves.

As an aside, even with broken skill challenges, the 4E DMG still provides more advice, information on how to handle non-combat encounters. I have both the 2E DMG and the 3.0 DMG and I know there's more in the 4E DMG than both of those books combined with dealing with non-combat encounters.

The previous DMGs were much better WORLD simulator guides IMO, especially the 1e and 3e DMG (the 2E DMG was sad, but ironically, the 2E World Builder's Guidebook is still better than ANYTHING TSR produced in 1E or WOTC produced in 3.x for worldbuilding advice. I personally use that more than even the DMGs)

 

[Imaro]

Action Point for Second Wind + an attack. I can do that more than once per day.

I attacked last round + Second Wind this round. It took me a little longer to get back on my feet, but I still did it.

Second Wind. I missed in the attack, but I still get pissed off enough to get an adrenaline surge. This is an easy one - I swing, hit his armour, and scream in rage!

Second Wind + Warlord's Favour. I heal, then attack. Slightly reversed, same deal - my hatred pushes me on.

Regular Attack + Inspiring Word.

I'm sure there are other ways to do the same thing using other resources.

Ignoring the fact that half your examples require the agreement and presence of another specific class (which by itself doesn't model Comeback Strike)... you are still limited... even in these shennanigans in that you can only use one Second Wind once per combat. Sorry no go, it is still a binary on/off switch. This is only further multiplied by the fact that this is just one power amongst many.

 

[LostSoul]

Sorry no go

Okay. How about this: I describe smacking some guy, and then the next guy who misses me I describe as hitting me - but I take it and can keep going because my hatred pushes me on.