D&D 4E Just played my first 4E game

[phloog]

On a "real" hit, hit points are subtracted.

If we look at an attack as an attempt to reduce hit points, and a healing surge as an attempt to increase hit points, then a miss can be a hit + a healing surge.
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Yes, I'm grateful to WOTC for greatly simplifying combat and making it all so much easier to explain to new players.

If you're offended by my sarcasm, I suggest you read the last phrase of the quoted passage five times fast.

 

[Abraxas]

Doesn't matter what forum they peruse or fail to. It's become a talking point for discussing 4e. Everyone says "video game." They don't say what video game. Is it Balder's Gate? Never Winter Nights? Never Winter Nights II?

The video game my friends compared it to was Tribes. The comparison went something like this. . .

Every character has its role and you don't deviate from that or you lose. There are a few set builds for each role (similar to weapon and gear load outs in Tribes). Everyone has to be much more tactically aware, if your off your game, or make the wrong move on the battlemat, the enemy slips by and your in a world of hurt - just like playing a Heavy D or turret monkey in tribes. They also noted that there are repetitive tactics in 4E to set up power combos - similar to combining Heavy O and Light O on certain maps to gain an advantage.

Now, they didn't say this was a bad thing - but it definitely was a different play experience than they expected.

 

[AtomicPope]

The video game my friends compared it to was Tribes. The comparison went something like this. . .

Every character has its role and you don't deviate from that or you lose. There are a few set builds for each role (similar to weapon and gear load outs in Tribes). Everyone has to be much more tactically aware, if your off your game, or make the wrong move on the battlemat, the enemy slips by and your in a world of hurt - just like playing a Heavy D or turret monkey in tribes. They also noted that there are repetitive tactics in 4E to set up power combos - similar to combining Heavy O and Light O on certain maps to gain an advantage.

Now, they didn't say this was a bad thing - but it definitely was a different play experience than they expected.

That's a generic comparison. It only serves to illustrate how ignorant your friend is of 4e. Nothing in your statement provides an even mediocre analysis of 4e or Tribes (my fav FPS). It's so generic it could be applied to any version of D&D or any cooperative strategy game.

Example:
1e is exactly like tribes. If you don't have a Heavy to stop the advance of the other team and block the corridors or a Light to sneak in and steal the flag you lose.


Neither example has provides any real insight into how the games are played. The only thing they illustrate is that both are team based games. Whoop-dee-do! Bogus. You might as well say, "D&D is too much like basketball! If you don't have a center, you'll never control the ball!"

 

[LostSoul]

Yes, I'm grateful to WOTC for greatly simplifying combat and making it all so much easier to explain to new players.

If you're offended by my sarcasm, I suggest you read the last phrase of the quoted passage five times fast.

I don't think new players are going to be the ones who complain about 4e being video-gamey.

 

[AtomicPope]

I think the fluff of 4E is bad. Not just the background, or the campaign setting, but also the power descriptions.

There is no default campaign setting. It's homebrew by default. Maybe you should get to work on your homebrew world and quit complaining

 

[AtomicPope]

What are you missing? It feels like an MMORPT like WoW or the like. Is it exactly the same? No. Is it very, very similar? Yes, it is.

So is every version of D&D like a video game. Why? D&D's Dave Arneson consults on video game design. Which came first? D&D. Who's copying? Video games. I highly doubt PONG was based on D&D.

No one failed to name what video game it feels like. People who have playd MMORPGs like WoW and EQ know what a video game design looks and plays like. This game looks and plays like a MMORPG. If you don't think so, then you've never played an MMORPG.

Striker = DPS class
Defender = Tank class
Controller = Crowd Control Class with DPS
Leader = Healer/Buff class.

I have the best PvP Swashy on Venekor. I'd pwn you like a Noob.

Your example only illustrates how video games have copied D&D, not the other way around. Crack open a 1st edition PHB by Gary Gygax, read Role-Playing Master by Gary Gygax, and Master of the Game by - you guessed it GARY GYGAX and you'll find that D&D was intentionally designed with these roles in mind since 1st edition.

None of this has anything to do with 4th edition except that it's mired the dialog with low-brow backwards comparisons. 4E is just as much a video game as every version of D&D that has ever existed. None of that has to do with the design of 4e but with the design of video games that emulate D&D.

Not a single friend I know say this game isn't designed around similar mechanics to WoW and other MMORPGs. They even refer to the character classes in WoW fashion such as calling the Defender the tank and the Leader class the healer.

It is what it is. They took some video game mechanics and rendered them in Pen and Paper RPG form. Video games did the same thing with RPGs.

They did not take a video game mechanics and rendered them to Pen and Paper. You've proven no such thing. All you've done is illustrated that D&D and video games share a common lexicon. You didn't mention Hit Points, video games have them. You didn't mention classes, video games have them. You didn't mention levels, video games have them. But all of these things - including the four combat roles - D&D has had first. Since 1st edition.

But you'd want everyone to believe that 1st edition was rendered from PONG.

 

[Abraxas]

That's a generic comparison. It only serves to illustrate how ignorant your friend is of 4e. Nothing in your statement provides an even mediocre analysis of 4e or Tribes (my fav FPS). It's so generic it could be applied to any version of D&D or any cooperative strategy game.

Given that it was an impression the players had about the game play and not an analysis, there's no problem. They don't have to defend it. Its of interest because this impression wasn't caused by 3E when they stated PnP RPGs

You don't like it, or don't think their impression is valid, tough.

 

[AtomicPope]

Given that it was an impression the players had about the game play and not an analysis, there's no problem. They don't have to defend it. Its of interest because this impression wasn't caused by 3E when they stated PnP RPGs

You don't like it, or don't think their impression is valid, tough.

The second you put something up for discussion you should consider or not whether it's tenable. Since your shrugged your shoulders so quickly at the end there it immediately exposes how weak their impression really is. It's nothing more than puppetry of a talking-point. Pundit-Gamer says, "4e is a video game" and everyone nods their heads in unison.

 

[Fenes]

There is no default campaign setting. It's homebrew by default. Maybe you should get to work on your homebrew world and quit complaining

The default campaign setting is there. Read the books, especially the preview books. It's a PoL setting with their own small utopian villages where all PC races live in harmony as its base, and a clear backstory (to explain the lizards and new tieflings).

 

[Fenes]

The second you put something up for discussion you should consider or not whether it's tenable. Since your shrugged your shoulders so quickly at the end there it immediately exposes how weak their impression really is. It's nothing more than puppetry of a talking-point. Pundit-Gamer says, "4e is a video game" and everyone nods their heads in unison.

It's a fact that that game shares a lot with MMOGs such as WoW. Cooldowns, more streamlined "cover all bases" grouping, tanking/aggro holding mechanics, and greater focus on balanced classes.

If it's good or bad or neither is up to everyone to decide for themselves, but claiming the game doesn't have strong similarities to MMOGs - or those to D&D - is ignoring reality.