What's with the Gnome Hate?

[Leatherhead]

Isn't it a poorly kept secret that the AD&D 2nd edition complete books of gnomes and halflings sold very little compared with the separate books on elves and dwarves? The memory of poor sales was what motivated Wizards of the Coast to shoehorn gnomes into Races of Stone, a book about dwarves (and to even more blatantly force halflings into a book about forests/elves). Gnomes don't really have a stone connection, they live under hills (i.e. dirt) and hang out with burrowing animals. Few real animals burrow through stone.

I blame that on halfings, how many people wanted to play a hobbit after all?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

And yet they've gone and rebooted the Draconians and kept the Kender-ized Halflings. So in two out of three cases, the legacy of Dragonlance won out, regardless of the settings demise.

A criticism of tinker gnomes isn't necessarily a criticism of Dragonlance. Tinker gnomes are found elsewhere too.

Halflings aren't kenderized. They're not compulsive thieves, and they don't get bored easily. They're actually a flanderization of halflings being "naturally good burglars" in ''the Hobbit''.

Dragonborn are an attempt to remake half-dragons without the dragon rape, and I don't like them much. I think 5e might only have three or four races, actually, since so many race ideas fail.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

He can talk about why HE plays gnomes or DOESN'T play gnomes. He does not have the ability to talk about why other people do or do not. No one does, on either side of the issue.

Actually, I do, and I will continue doing so. People HAVE done surveys of hundreds or thousands of MMORPG players. See www.nickyee.com. Put that in your little gnome pipe and smoke it.

It's also no accident that in any given MMORPG where both gnomes and halflings are available, halflings are more popular (nearly said poopular, that too).

(Psi)SeveredHead - Whilst Dragonborn are much like a reboot of half-dragons (a races who combined retarded look and bizarre apparent popularity - I saw more of them in FR sourcebooks than Drow for god's sake - always confused me), I don't know if that's really accurate. They're clearly a "race for people who like Dragon", but they also appeal to the "race for people who like Klingons" crowd, and to some extent the "race for people who like wierd-ass races" crowd.

Also, if race concepts "failing" got races kicked out of WotC books, I'm pretty sure Half-Elves would never have come back.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

(Psi)SeveredHead - Whilst Dragonborn are much like a reboot of half-dragons (a races who combined retarded look and bizarre apparent popularity - I saw more of them in FR sourcebooks than Drow for god's sake - always confused me), I don't know if that's really accurate. They're clearly a "race for people who like Dragon", but they also appeal to the "race for people who like Klingons" crowd, and to some extent the "race for people who like wierd-ass races" crowd.

Also, if race concepts "failing" got races kicked out of WotC books, I'm pretty sure Half-Elves would never have come back.

Half-elves might get kicked out of 5e. But in the meantime, they have some (small) niche to cling to.

Also, there's at least a few cool half-elves. (Well, okay, maybe just Tanis.) I can't recall any cool gnomes except a supporting character in a single Drizzt book (and I can't recall his name) outside of Eberron.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

A criticism of tinker gnomes isn't necessarily a criticism of Dragonlance. Tinker gnomes are found elsewhere too.

Halflings aren't kenderized. They're not compulsive thieves, and they don't get bored easily. They're actually a flanderization of halflings being "naturally good burglars" in ''the Hobbit''.

Dragonborn are an attempt to remake half-dragons without the dragon rape, and I don't like them much. I think 5e might only have three or four races, actually, since so many race ideas fail.

I am not sure that they really fail. When I look at the group compositions I've seen so far, all the 4E races seem to be well received.

In fact, I think the two 4E campaigns we have currently running seem absent of humans. I think that never happened before in our campaigns. Maybe it's just testing out the new toys, or that the new races are mechanically over-powered, but maybe it's just because they are all appealing.

 

[Nifft]

Also, there's at least a few cool half-elves. (Well, okay, maybe just Tanis.) I can't recall any cool gnomes except a supporting character in a single Drizzt book (and I can't recall his name) outside of Eberron.

Jahira and Jan would like a word with you.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Set]

Half-elves might get kicked out of 5e. But in the meantime, they have some (small) niche to cling to.

Also, there's at least a few cool half-elves. (Well, okay, maybe just Tanis.) I can't recall any cool gnomes except a supporting character in a single Drizzt book (and I can't recall his name) outside of Eberron.

Gnomes exist in the AD&D game only because of Hugi, from Three Hearts and Three Lions. Half-Elves (and Hobbitses) exist in because of Elrond, from Tolkein.

Neither race is a staple of pre-D&D fantasy, really.

One fantasy race I see very little of is the idea of the elder human race, from Atlantis or Avalon or whatever, a member of a lost advanced utopian culture with an intellect far ahead of his peers. It's pretty common in fantasy, but, other than EverQuest's Erudites, pretty rare in gaming.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Yeah, the inventor gnome can work, just don't go full-on tinker with it. Tinker gnomes were just silly with their compulsive behaviors. It's ok if other races mistrust gnome tech, as long as said tech actually works or at least doesn't fail catastrophically like tinker gnome tech does.

We once had a flashlight made with the dragonlance invention table. It malfunctioned and turned a large field into glass... we assume it was fusion powered.

Dragonlance was a wonderful example of a literary world, where folks tolerate each other for the simple reason that the books need those characters as comic relief or tension breakers, et cetera. They can work in some games of D&D, but Dragonlance as a campaign was geared towards a very specific kind of campaign. Greyhawk, FR, Eberron, they were broader based and better able to handle varying archetypes. Greyhawk with classic gnomes, FR with some tinkerish gnomes and some less detailed gnomes, Eberron with information brokers, but you could still make whatever type of gnome (or other character) you wanted.

And really, dwarves are nearly always the same no matter what D&D setting they're in. But then the typical dwarf doesn't need work, it's successful, it's popular and people actually want to play it.

Though from reading ENworld, my campaigns seem a minority, for me dwarves have always been the least played race. And even then, when someone played a dwarf they always played that same "dwarf:. Elves had variety, gnomes, halflings, humans... but dwarf is dwarf.

(Very few half-orcs also, but I'm talking over the course of 3 editions, and they were absent for part of that. The 3e half-orc was also hard to break mold with though.)

Part of why I don't like the new dragonborn is because they are constrained by a given culture without a reason I like. Sure you can ignore it, but I don't like depicting a race with a personality.

 

[Storm-Bringer]

Wow. Tinker Gnomes or Garden Gnomes? That's it?

Here's a campaign concept: Trader Gnomes.

They always seem to show up where the players need them with just what the players need. For a price. A steep price. Reviled by other merchants, despised by common folk, they nonetheless are nearly ubiquitous where ever money changes hands. Naturally, some of their wares have been obtained by less than honest means, but you still get a good price, right? They are easy to find at any market, too, clad in garish colours and clashing patterns. Experts at squeezing the last nickel out of a mark- errr... customer, their only guiding principle is caveat emptor. Because of this, their ability to appraise goods is unmatched in the known lands. Second only to that skill is their ability to judge how much a person is willing or able to pay for their goods.

Old DM trick. If you need a quirk to liven up a stale characterization, use a Star Trek race. In this case, of course, Gnomes=Ferrengi. The old DMG had a table for NPC attitudes, also. Roll up a couple of those, apply them in general terms to the whole race, and bingo! New twist for an old race.

 

[Nifft]

Here's a campaign concept: Trader Gnomes.

Seen it before, but they were called "Halflings" back then.

(Seriously, "speak with burrowing mammals" does not a trader make.)

Cheers, -- N