D&D 4E Just played my first 4E game

[med stud]

I always considered the "tank" role as stupid unless it made tactically sense (the aforementioned corridor, for example), or if the NPCs could do the same - and telling players "No, your character will attack the heavily armored fighter, and not the weak wizard that is magic missiling you to death, because the tank taunted you" is just wrong.

I still think that terrain and tactics, not "magical" "you have to attack me and ignore the wizard" powers should determine if tanking is possible. A single fighter, in open terrain, simply can't protect a whole party of four, IMHO.

Luckily it's still the case . The fighter can stop you from running by him and give you penalties if you attack anyone but him and the paladin damage you if you attack someone else. None of them has a compulsion that forces creatures to attack them. They make it a worse idea to attack someone else.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I always considered the "tank" role as stupid unless it made tactically sense (the aforementioned corridor, for example), or if the NPCs could do the same - and telling players "No, your character will attack the heavily armored fighter, and not the weak wizard that is magic missiling you to death, because the tank taunted you" is just wrong.

I still think that terrain and tactics, not "magical" "you have to attack me and ignore the wizard" powers should determine if tanking is possible. A single fighter, in open terrain, simply can't protect a whole party of four, IMHO.

I am not so much a fan of taunts (well, it works for me in Torg), but I like the 4E approach to tanking: "You can ignore me, but if you do, I'll hurt you a lot more!" It doesn't sound like some magical ability, but something that a skilled character just might be able to do.

 

[Fenes]

As long as the fighter is within reach. But as I said, for me the real test is: Can the NPCs do the same?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

As long as the fighter is within reach.

Getting in reach is not that hard - there are only 4-5 PCs, after all. Fighter just has to keep close to them if he can't find any natural choke points.

But as I said, for me the real test is: Can the NPCs do the same?

Yes, they can. If you want to see how they do it, look at the various Soldier monsters.


(In Torg, it works against PCs, too. Which can be quite nasty because it is a more unusual attack form and unless you are a "Taunter" yourself, you will have trouble defending yourself against it.)

 

[Fenes]

Getting in reach is not that hard - there are only 4-5 PCs, after all. Fighter just has to keep close to them if he can't find any natural choke points.

Unless the enemies use ranged attacks.

 

[Jack99]

Unless the enemies use ranged attacks.

Fighter charges enemy, attacking and marking them. Enemy tries to move away, in order not to suffer OA's, and find himself getting OA'ed anyway, unless he spends his round shifting and then moving.

Ergo. He has the choice to :
1) drop his ranged weapons and engage the fighter in melee
2) keep throwing stuff at the fighter's party, and get hit by OA's of the fighter
3) spend his entire round moving away (shift then move)

I would say that it works fine against ranged attackers.

 

[Fenes]

Fighter charges enemy, attacking and marking them. Enemy tries to move away, in order not to suffer OA's, and find himself getting OA'ed anyway, unless he spends his round shifting and then moving.

Ergo. He has the choice to :
1) drop his ranged weapons and engage the fighter in melee
2) keep throwing stuff at the fighter's party, and get hit by OA's of the fighter
3) spend his entire round moving away (shift then move)

I would say that it works fine against ranged attackers.

Only if the ranged attackers are close together. If they are spread out, then the fighter can't really charge all.

Not to mention that if the fighter charges, he leaves the party open to charges from other enemies.

 

[Jack99]

Only if the ranged attackers are close together. If they are spread out, then the fighter can't really charge all.

Not to mention that if the fighter charges, he leaves the party open to charges from other enemies.

Yes. Obviously a lone fighter can do little with several ranged attackers who are spread out. That is a good thing though.

But as MR pointed out, NPC's (soldiers) have the same (similar) ability. They can mark (giving you -2 to hit other targets) and some of them have bonuses if a marked victim causes an OA (such as extra damage).

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Only if the ranged attackers are close together. If they are spread out, then the fighter can't really charge all.

Not to mention that if the fighter charges, he leaves the party open to charges from other enemies.

Isn't that what you want, though? Tactics?

And even that situation the fighter has done what he is supposed to do, expand the tactical opportunities of the party by limiting the tactical options of the opponents.

It's not a situation that leverages the fighter's abilities and role to its best advantage, but the fighter is still able to help the party by carrying out his role competently.

 

[Fenes]

Yes. I am just pointing out that D&D doesn't offer the MMOG tank, who magically forces everyone to attack just him, and no one else.