Forked Thread: Rate WotC as a company: 4e Complete?

[ProfessorCirno]

The near mandatory 4e fans insulting and disregarded anyone else aside, 4e is complete as a pen and paper game, but feels incomplete as a D&D game, and is overall lacking in options and choices.

 

[The Little Raven]

Isn't that my point? That they removed something troublesome, but the fix isn't until later? 3.5 grapple was bleh, but it was mostly the extra's that made it unbearable. Again, grab isn't grapple, they've already said Grapple will come later.

Grab is the replacement for grapple, as there is no 4e core class that supports unarmed combat as one of it's shticks. It works just fine as a basic ability.

A dismissive antagonistic tone does not mean something that is a staple of fantasy hasn't been curtailed. Flight was problematic, so they cut it way back.

Cut it back and made it gone are two entirely different things. Stick to the facts and I might be less dismissive.

Being able to invalidate a vast chunk of encounters due to one ability gained at level 5 is overpowered. This is a game, not a simulation, just as Gygax intended.

I'm not even sure why you're arguing with me since I said I liked rituals.

I'm not sure why you decided to argue with me when you claimed that everything that doesn't fit on the grid was cut from the game, and I pointed out things that weren't on the grid and are still in the game.

 

[Andor]

Oh, you mean no more "I hit 5th-level, and any melee-based monster is now worthless" flight.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

And that doesn't even address the fact that Flight is a mechanic that is handled by 4th Edition, so your claim that it is gone is false.

I realize that rationality is not a hallmark of the 4e fanboi, but you can't both claim to be grateful that something is gone and then say it's still there anyway. Well, not and be sane anyway.

As far as 'completeness' goes .... I think 4e has some real issues.

It's a stock fantasy game but it lacks staples like good dragons and centaurs. It's heir to a gaming tradition that always held up the 'Knight in Shining armour' as an archtype, yet barely covers the concepts of mounts and mounted combat and somehow still offers two different ways of dealing with them and no particular guidence on which one to use.

The rules system is non-intuitive, abstract and poorly written. Furthermore the writing style denies insight into the designers intent which makes things harder than they need to be when a problem crops up.

There is not even a nod to those aspect of the world that do not involve going into a labyrinth and killing things. The equipment list doesn't even include clothes for god's sake.

 

[Fifth Element]

The near mandatory 4e fans insulting and disregarded anyone else aside, 4e is complete as a pen and paper game, but feels incomplete as a D&D game, and is overall lacking in options and choices.

It really depends on what you mean by "complete". Obviously the game can be played as it is without additional material needed.

Does it have as many options as 3.5 at the end of its run? Of course not.

Does it have as many options as 3.5 when it was first released? Probably.

Does it have the same options as 3.5 when it was first released? No, thankfully they avoided simply rehashing everything.

 

[The Little Raven]

I realize that rationality is not a hallmark of the 4e fanboi, but you can't both claim to be grateful that something is gone and then say it's still there anyway. Well, not and be sane anyway.

I know it may be taxing to the head-muscle and all, but using brainpower to apply context is a wondrous thing. Note the part where I point out that the ability to fly is in 4th Edition, which is in response to the claim that was made by Vocenoctum.

That is entirely separate from being grateful that it doesn't invalidate melee-based encounters at 5th-level.

And the amazing part? They aren't mutually exclusive concepts. Flight exists in 4e, and doesn't just invalidate an entire category of encounters by 5th level.

It's a stock fantasy game but it lacks staples like good dragons and centaurs.

Because things you hardly ever fight need combat statistics?

It's heir to a gaming tradition that always held up the 'Knight in Shining armour' as an archtype, yet barely covers the concepts of mounts and mounted combat and somehow still offers two different ways of dealing with them and no particular guidence on which one to use.

It covers mounted combat better, and offers far more variation based on mount type, than 3e ever did.

The rules system is non-intuitive, abstract and poorly written. Furthermore the writing style denies insight into the designers intent which makes things harder than they need to be when a problem crops up.

To me, this is the single best rules system for D&D ever written. Way better than the tripe TSR was calling game design.

There is not even a nod to those aspect of the world that do not involve going into a labyrinth and killing things. The equipment list doesn't even include clothes for god's sake.

Oh noes! Without clothes on an equipment list, how are intelligent, creative people supposed to know that their characters can buy and wear clothes?! How ever will we get by without a list of 10 different outfits that service no functional purpose in the game?

 

[Rechan]

Actually, I will question this I’ve seen many more golems, frost giants and metallic dragons in play than psionics.

And I've seen more psionics in play than metallics or golems. So...

I firmly stand by the notion that those that need Metallic Dragon stats are in the minority, and therefore the metallics don't need to be in the first books.

As for your "Lame" monsters, those "lame" monsters are intended to fill the few, new planes. 12 pages of dragons vs. inhabitants in a plane you're likely to visit.

 

[Fifth Element]

The equipment list doesn't even include clothes for god's sake.

Thankfully, they decided not to include them, presumably to make more room for other more important things.

Your character wants clothes? He's got them. Just because they're not on the equipment list doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[Rechan]

The near mandatory 4e fans insulting and disregarded anyone else aside

I realize that rationality is not a hallmark of the 4e fanboi

Cute strawman and, in the latter case an ad hominem, that adds nothing to the discussion.

 

[lutecius]

You forgot Unicorns...because evrybody knows if there was an iconic monster that everyone fought it was those dang-blasted unicorns...I totally understand how they as well as a few others beat out metallic dragons...

Yeah, mean bastards them Good catch.

I'm surprised they didn't even get some nasty elemental form in 4e.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Cute strawman and, in the latter case an ad hominem, that adds nothing to the discussion.

Start proving me wrong? Someone made a complete insult towards others' playstyles simply because they were different, they were called on it, and now you're pretending it never happened in the first place. This happens in just about every thread. Obligatory 4e fan insulting and dismissing others is obligatory.