Stealthy movement

[Paul Strack]

First) open-c/c-open

and

Second) c/c-open-c/c

My interpretation is the you cannot use Stealth in either case. I think you need c/c for the entire move. After all, the RAW states "Part of whatever action you are trying to perform stealthily.", not "Part of whatever portion of an action you are trying to perform stealthily."

If you are allowed to pass through open squares during your move and still hide, then using Bluff for a Distraction and the Rogue's Shadow Stride power become useless.

For example:

Rogue A spends a standard action, yells "Look, a monkey!" to bluff the orcs, then runs behind a pillar and hides.

Rogue B tells Rogue A, "Dude, you are a such an idjut", spends a standard action to hit an orc with a dagger, then casually strolls behind another pillar and hides because he ends at a concealed space.

On the next turn, Rogue A says "I move like the night", and uses Shadow Stride to move from one pillar to the next, making a Stealth check to remain hidden.

Rogue B mutters, "Yeah, whatever", saunters over to the next pillar and hides again just because he ends at a concealed space.

 

[Kordeth]

If you are allowed to pass through open squares during your move and still hide, then using Bluff for a Distraction and the Rogue's Shadow Stride power become useless.

Not really. There's still a great deal of benefit to having the entirety of your movement hidden.

For example:

Rogue A spends a standard action, yells "Look, a monkey!" to bluff the orcs, then runs behind a pillar and hides.

Rogue B tells Rogue A, "Dude, you are a such an idjut", spends a standard action to hit an orc with a dagger, then casually strolls behind another pillar and hides because he ends at a concealed space.

In this case, the orcs don't know exactly where behind the pillar rogue A is, because they lost sight of him when he moved behind it--but they certainly know he moved that way and went behind the pillar, and unless that pillar conveniently backs up onto a labyrinth, they probably find him again pretty quick.

Roughe B, on the other hand, distracted them--they don't know where he went. He might be behind the pillar, or he might be on the balcony, or through the door into the next antechamber. Advantage still goes to Rogue B.

On the next turn, Rogue A says "I move like the night", and uses Shadow Stride to move from one pillar to the next, making a Stealth check to remain hidden.

Rogue B mutters, "Yeah, whatever", saunters over to the next pillar and hides again just because he ends at a concealed space.

In this case, Rogue A is hidden for his entire movement. The orcs don't even see him cross the four open squares between pillar one and pillar two.

Rogue B, on the other hand, is plainly seen to dash out from behind one pillar, run across the room, and move behind another pillar where the orcs lose sight of him. Gee, I wonder where Rogue B is? Advantage: Rogue A.

Stealth is not invisibility, nor is it a magic amnesia pill that makes people forget everything you did this round.

 

[essenbee]

Well, you can sneak up behind someone using a Stealth roll to move silently, without ever going anywhere near cover...

 

[Kordeth]

Well, you can sneak up behind someone using a Stealth roll to move silently, without ever going anywhere near cover...

Only if the person is distracted. Out of combat, that can be as simple as "sneak behind the guard," but in combat everyone is assumed to be paying attention all around them.

 

[essenbee]

Only if the person is distracted. Out of combat, that can be as simple as "sneak behind the guard," but in combat everyone is assumed to be paying attention all around them.

Yes, that is right; but adjudicating distraction is a very simple matter when a PC team has a plan and works together. Where it gets hard is when players try to use the Stealth skill as if it were an invisibility spell... I just say "No" and move on.

 

[clearstream]

If you are allowed to pass through open squares during your move and still hide, then using Bluff for a Distraction and the Rogue's Shadow Stride power become useless.

I agree with the sentiment behind this, Kordeth's apposite points notwithstanding.

My view of the overall intent of 4th is that powers are intended to be the focus of combat.

-vk

 

[Paul Strack]

Stealth is not invisibility, nor is it a magic amnesia pill that makes people forget everything you did this round.

I happen to agree with you. My example above was pointing problems that result from a simple one-tier interpretation of hidden.

I believe that the rules imply two levels of hiding, not one.

Lesser Hidden) You are simply hidden from view.

Greater Hidden) You are hidden and your location is not known.

I think all the problems with the Stealth originate in confusing these two states. In my example above (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4400181&postcount=11) I think Rogue A has the Greater Hidden status but Rogue B only has the Lesser Hidden status.

Here is how I break it down:

Lesser Hidden

Benefits: Combat Advantage against your target.

Requirements: Normal Cover or Concealment and a Stealth check that beats your target's Perception.

Notes: Because the Lesser Hidden benefit only applies offensively, there is no point in making your stealth check until right before you make your attack.

Greater Hidden

Benefits: Combat Advantage and protected by Targeting What You Can't See (TWYCS)

Requirements: Superior Cover or Total Concealment, movement from your last known position and a Stealth check that beats the Perception of all your enemies.

Justifications (all in my opinion):

1) You need Superior Cover or Total Concealment because that is the only section of the Stealth rules that describe TWYCS-type benefits.

2) You need to have moved from your last known location because TWYCS only helps you if your enemy must guess which square you are in.

3) You need to beat all your enemies because if any one of them knows your location square, he can reveal it to his allies as a Free Action. Furthermore, if any opponent spots you, he can immediately reveal your location to all his allies, again as a Free Action.

Notes: This is the only level of hidden that can be used defensively and the only one that you really need to track as a lasting effect. Furthermore, since you have to beat all your enemies to get this level of hidden, you can treat it as a simple status and not bother to track which enemies you are and are not hidden from (you must be hidden from all to benefit from TWYCS).

 

[the_redbeard]

Yes, that is right; but adjudicating distraction is a very simple matter when a PC team has a plan and works together. Where it gets hard is when players try to use the Stealth skill as if it were an invisibility spell... I just say "No" and move on.

The post we've had from Mearls on the issue is that he thinks the skill should be BETTER than the spell.

From This post on the WoTC forums:

One thing to keep in mind is that one of the big picture changes in 4e was to move stealth and hiding from spells to skills. In other words, the rogue or ranger are the best PCs for hiding, not the wizard with an invisibility spell.

The spell is still useful, but it is now much more limited and harder to use over and over again.

With that in mind, when you are DMing it's OK to be liberal with letting people use the skill. If a rogue wants to run from a hiding point, across a room full of monsters, and then hide again in a different cover position, that's OK. I've run it such that on a successful check, the creatures don't notice the rogue's movement, and it has worked out fine (my ruling being that since the player wanted to move stealthily, he was unnoticed while moving).

The interesting thing to me is that it makes creatures with high passive Perception scores valuable in encounters. I've been playing around with monster designs the promote a sort of "order of operations" for adventurers - take out this guy first, then this guy next - and high perception guys are an area I'm messing around with as "first step targets" to clear out space for the stealthy characters.

(If you played Return to the Moathouse at Origins, you saw a fight that operated this way in encounter 2. I won't say more to avoid spoilers, but there was one critter that you really, really wanted to kill first. I had one party ignore it and almost suffer a TPK as a level 5 party going against a balanced level 6 encounter.)

Emphasis mine.

 

[Kordeth]

I happen to agree with you. My example above was pointing problems that result from a simple one-tier interpretation of hidden.

I believe that the rules imply two levels of hiding, not one.

I think you're introducing more formality and structure than the rules actually need. There's really only one level of hidden, and that's "not being seen." If you've successfully hidden, you can't be seen and enemies have to try to target what they cannot see. They might have a pretty good idea what square you're in based on the particular terrain, but they can't see you. You could be anywhere within that 25-square-foot area, or you might have slipped off elsewhere. Thus, they have to target you by guessing.

What you call "greater hidden" is really just maintaining stealth for long enough that the enemy can't predict where you are, and/or choosing a hiding place that provides a large area of uncertainty. If the only cover in a featureless room is a 5-foot square pillar and you hide, the enemy is going to be pretty confident that you're one or two squares behind that pillar. If, on the other hand, you dash into a 5-square by 5-square cloud of fog, you could be anywhere in that cloud.

 

[the_redbeard]

DMG61. Lightly obscured squares between you and the stealther give you a -5 penalty.

Why would I make this stuff up?

-vk

The relevant quote:

"Lightly Obscured: Squares of dim light, fog, smoke,
heavy snow, or rain are lightly obscured.

Concealment: A creature has total concealment
against you if 5 or more lightly obscured squares
stand between you and it (including the nearest
square of the creature’s space). Closer creatures have
concealment, but not total concealment.

Vision: You can see through lightly obscured
squares, but you take a –5 penalty to Perception
checks to see or spot things."

Which makes low-light and night vision races a lot more powerful. The wizard cantrip Light is a great combat power, even more so the cleric Lantern prayer.

I imagine a Kobold dungeon encounter in which they have torches on the walls so that the party thinks they won't need a light source. Then as combat begins the kobolds throw a switch, the torches are extinguished and the stealthers come out to attack with near certain combat advantage.