New stealth stuff from WotC

[Pielorinho]

Valesin, two points.

First, you can also do it when you have superior cover, which can still let you be seen; it grants an advantage in this respect (essentially making it nearly impossible to hit you, and giving you combat advantage when you have superior cover).
Second, you can move from that position of total concealment to a position of only partial concealment/cover, maintaining the advantage. The party enters the room and attacks. You stealth and move forward to a position of partial cover/concealment and attack. Or you can even run outside the room, stealth, and come back in with a sneak-attack.

Daniel

 

[Arbitrary]

So you can only hide from a person when they already have absolutely zero chance of seeing you in the first place.

Anyone else who moves behind a pillar in combat is just a guy standing behind a pillar. Everyone knows where he is and the advantage gained is low. The character trained in Stealth can take advantage of the situation.

 

[Pielorinho]

Whereas that same rogue in an outdoor setting with light underbrush does...nothing.

In an outdoor setting with light underbrush, the rogue makes a bluff check, or uses/waits for an ally to impose a combat-advantage-condition on the opponent, or suck it up and move into a flanking position . I'd have some problems with the idea of a rogue hiding from an enemy by ducking down into the shrubbery.

Stalker, it's total concealment, but only superior cover. I just played around on my battlemap, and it's often possible to have superior cover against an enemy, but for the enemy to have no cover against you, I think.

Edit: actually, I think I was wrong. The best you can do is to have superior cover, and the enemy gets regular cover. And that's harder to get than I thought.

Daniel

 

[yarael]

To verify that this strategy would work:

The PCs are in a room with 5' diameter pillars in it.

A rogue moves at normal speed across the room to a location that grants her superior cover against an enemy. Until she ends her movement, she has little or no cover or concealment.

At the end of her movement, she makes a stealth check at no penalty.

Although she has superior cover against the enemy, the enemy has no cover against her.

She uses a standard action to make a ranged attack; she has combat advantage on this attack and can apply sneak-attack damage.

Is this accurate?

It makes ranged rogues a lot better if so.

Daniel

No the Stealth check would have a -5 penalty, per....
"Stealth: At the end of a move action.

Opposed Check: Stealth vs. passive Perception. If multiple enemies are present, your Stealth check is opposed by each enemy’s passive Perception check. If you move more than 2 squares during the move action, you take a –5 penalty to the Stealth check. If you run, the penalty is –10."

 

[Valesin]

Anyone else who moves behind a pillar in combat is just a guy standing behind a pillar. Everyone knows where he is and the advantage gained is low. The character trained in Stealth can take advantage of the situation.

But the rogue seen moving behind the pillar, because until he gets behind the pillar he can do nothing stealthily, is just some guy behind a pillar that you can't see but you know is there.

 

[Mengu]

Basically in combat they don't want you making stealth checks every round to go ninja invisible under a pebble. Outside of combat, you can hide in the shadow of a city wall, or along the edge of some light woods, or hide in your own shadow Desperado style, no problem. This is really no different than the way we've always played it in 3.x. I have no problem with this new ruling.

 

[Pielorinho]

No the Stealth check would have a -5 penalty, per....

Of course you're right. Somehow I was thinking that modified only applied to movements made once you were already stealthed, but it clearly refers to the move during which you become stealthy.

Thanks!
Daniel

 

[bardolph]

I like these new rules. Yes it's a big nerf, but a big nerf was needed. The old rules were a huge pain in the butt, if for no other reason than the ridiculous number of die rolls (even two rolls per attack is painful).

Sniper rogues are much harder to play now, admittedly. However, there are still ways to get CA in the middle of combat from range. For example:

• Round 1: Surprise Round. Automatic CA.
• Round 2: Win Initiative. First Strike CA from around a corner, followed by a 2-square move to break line of sight. Stealth Check - success.
• Round 3: 2-square move back to the corner while hidden. Attack from corner with CA.
• Round 4: Attack from corner without CA. 2-square move to break LoS. Stealth - hidden again.

Rinse and repeat. After round 4, the rogue will get CA every other attack if no one inflicts a condition that causes CA. However, with proper application of powers and good teamwork, this rogue can get CA with every attack.

Another thing to note is that rogues can be effective at range AND melee without suffering from MAD. So, any round that the rogue cannot get CA from range, they can simply move in and flank.

 

[bardolph]

To verify that this strategy would work:

The PCs are in a room with 5' diameter pillars in it.

A rogue moves at normal speed across the room to a location that grants her superior cover against an enemy. Until she ends her movement, she has little or no cover or concealment.

At the end of her movement, she makes a stealth check at no penalty.

Although she has superior cover against the enemy, the enemy has no cover against her.

She uses a standard action to make a ranged attack; she has combat advantage on this attack and can apply sneak-attack damage.

Is this accurate?

Yes, this works. However, gaining superior cover from a 5' pillar is not so easy. Usually, you'll be stuck with normal cover, and so no stealth check.

 

[clearstream]

Highlights:
- Make a stealth check at the end of a move action only
- When hidden, you are silent and invisible with respect to the enemy you are hidden from
- If you attack, you gain the benefit of being hidden, but are no longer hidden afterward.
- If you move, make a new stealth check
- You can't hide behind another creature

Seems pretty clear to me now. Good find!

What many people may find counter-intuitive is that if you get hidden, then on a later turn move flagrantly through open squares adjacent to severa enemies, you remain invisible during that move action right under the noses of those enemies.

At the end of that move action you are no longer hidden (and can't rehide without another action).

Also look at Fleeting Ghost. It seems to grant a check without needing SC or TC. So end your move in a C or C square and hide, and then follow up with a second move, hidden, to a new location.

That makes Rogues who go the Stealth route the best sneakers in the game. Pre-compendium it was Warlocks, Rogues, Rangers. Now it's Rogues, Rangers, Warlocks, as it should be.

-vk