New stealth stuff from WotC

[Saeviomagy]

Having played a rogue, I think the following:

Total cover and total concealment are not particularly well defined, so pinning a key element of a class on them isn't great. The requirements for both are extremely steep, as can be seen by the previous scenario of the 5' pillar.

It's fairly obvious that almost none of the powers that interact with stealth interact in a clear way with the new rules. It takes a fair bit of interpretation to say that fleeting ghost merely avoids a movement penalty (especially since there is a feat that does the same thing, and fleeting ghost is worded completely differently). I think that there is definately a gaping hole for one or more powers that would allow regular concealment or cover to grant stealth checks. That said, allowing fleeting ghost to pull double duty, and be by far the most valuable stealth power throughout all levels seems to be a bit much.

From what I see, it's going to require a standard action to spot a hiding foe. I think that's extremely harsh, especially for players who will be the brunt of most stealth attacks (monsters are much more likely than players are to have enhanced senses or super-duper stealth powers). It seems to me that a minor action would be far more suitable (minor actions are supposed to be used for any 'enabling' action, and further it would seem to me that looking around should not be something that would take the place of movement or an attack). It's also a lot more fun to be able to move, look around for a foe, and have a chance to actually attack him before he disappears again.

Apart from those points, I think the new rules are great.

 

[Benly]

Chameleon is an immediate action so you cant take it on your turn so no ninja death flailing. It lets you count as being in cover/concealed if an enemy moves to where you are not (or your ally's smoke grenade wears off). It does not override the other things that stop you being hidden.

Correct about the immediate actions, I had missed that. However, why wouldn't it override the "other things that stop you being hidden"? Either it sets out a new set of parameters for what ends your hidden status and overwrites the old one, or it actually does nothing because it sets out a new way to become unhidden without removing the old ones.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I like it, it basically means that in combat you cannot 'hide in plain sight' in 3E speak. So you have to have total c/c to start with so the enemy cannot see you but you can use stealth to leave that total c/c and remain unseen/heard. So you can't be standing in a bit of light rubble and suddenly the enemy cannot see you!
Outside combat, if the guy is 'looking in your direction' you can sneak past him or whatever.
Simple and easy; I am sure there are conflicts within the rules (it is a big change) but IMO this a good basis for stealth rules

 

[Nail]

The "new" rules are great...but they're not errata yet.

 

[Khime]

But it is likely to go away.

Baring a new announcement, the Compendium does NOT yet over rule the PHB.

When it first came out, myself and others found a few discrepancies between the PHB and the Compendium. I emailed the ones to Ken Troop (think that's the right guy for DDI) and got an email back that yes these were errors and thanks for reporting them.

On the other hand, the errata that is being released is also being incorporated into the Compendium as it comes out. And with all of the discussions that have been going on over the last few weeks, I have a hard time believing that nobody noticed this discrepancy before... unless it wasn't like this before, and this is in fact a new update.

The last errata has a published date of 7/2. We're coming up on August; bets that the 'new' stealth is in the next errata sheet?

 

[Stalker0]

On the other hand, the errata that is being released is also being incorporated into the Compendium as it comes out. And with all of the discussions that have been going on over the last few weeks, I have a hard time believing that nobody noticed this discrepancy before... unless it wasn't like this before, and this is in fact a new update.

The last errata has a published date of 7/2. We're coming up on August; bets that the 'new' stealth is in the next errata sheet?

Another "sneaky" possibility is that WOTC is releasing these rules on the compendium for our review. Basically they are given us a beta version of the errata, and then seeing what our reactions are. If true its a good idea, this way they haven't comitted to any errata, but can still get a wider perspective on various rules changes.

 

[Danceofmasks]

In case anyone missed it (I fail at reading whole thread), a Rogue can get CA via stealth every turn with the compendium thingie.

1) He's at a corner with cover
2) He moves 1 step (gets total cover), and hides.
3) He uses deft strike to move back 1 step, and shoots with CA.
4) Repeat.

 

[robsenworldaccount]

I'm glad wotc put out the revision on stealth.

If you don't like the change, you don't like the nerf.

Even if you hate the change, a part of you is thinking; "I understand why these rules were changed"

It's about warlocks and rogues gaining access to stealth too easily.

It's about clarifying the tangled web known as the "stealth" skill.

It's a new edition, everyone has to be ready to accept that the game is not static, and changes will occur. Admittedly, I would like confirmation that this is not beta, but concrete rule changes. This we need to ask wotc.

 

[Danceofmasks]

It is at best beta.
Compendium isn't, and has no bearing on rules as written, errata, or FAQ.

 

[Khime]

They're discussing this over on the Wizard forums, and someone got an answer out of a CSR:

"Yes, these updates are official. The errata page may take some time to update, but rest assured that the rules for stealth found in the compendium are correct."

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=16474103#post16474103

It was also noticed that the Compendium text for Bluff has been modified reflecting how you can use Bluff to Hide, referring to making a seperate Stealth check rather than outright using Bluff to hide.

Take this as you will.