Why hate onthe drow? (Forked Thread: How is FR changing with 4E?)
- Thread starter Midnight Dawns
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Traycor
Explorer
Mercule
Adventurer
To a degree, no. To that degree, yes.
Actually, I take that back, to an extent. When FR had the Underdark, it was fine. When it found its way to the "default assumptions" list, I started disliking it. Kinda like kenders, tinker gnomes, the Far Reaches, and Sigil.
Mercule
Adventurer
Planescape, as a whole, really isn't my thing. I'm certain I'd enjoy playing in a PS campaign. But it isn't my preference, nor would I DM one....But I like Sigil
Unsurprisingly, I'm not a big fan of the Blood War, either. Same basic reason.
CruelSummerLord
First Post
A lot of the really good points have already been touched on here: the drow were initially cool for their mystery, dangerous abilities, and the remarkable way in which they were first revealed by Gygax, but everything from overexposure to the rapidly developed cliche of angst-ridden good guys quickly soured a lot of people on the drow. My major points are as follows:
-I rather like Drizzt himself as a character; what annoys the hell out of me is how the rest of the Realms has jumped on top of it. I personally loathe the church of Eilistraee, which I view as little more than a rather blatant excuse for fanservice (drow women dancing naked in the forest-ick), and the simple fact that they don't seem to have any discernable flaws-in many ways, they're a faith of Mary Sues.
-To make matters worse, many sources, including and especially Salvatore, depict the drow as being just short of infallible. Bregan D'aerthe is depicted as being able to seize control of the Citadel of Assassins in Vaasa, with the humans looking like bungling amateurs by comparison, for example, and Jarlaxle himself seems almost omniscient-he always knows the exact thing to say and do, and everything turns out exactly the way he predicted it. He never seems to make a mistake.
Similarly, King Obould Many-Arrows and Gerti Oresldottr do not march to war against humanity by their own volition, but through the manipulations of four drow who had no business being in the plot.
-In my own Greyhawk lore, I take a few steps to redress the balance, such as the drow's arrogance and natural sense of superiority often leading them to make foolish mistakes, such as underestimating orcs and goblins and charging in to attack them without battle plans, and otherwise suffering defeats at the hands of the supposedly crude and stupid goblins, who send the drow running home crying to their spiders.
Priestesses of Lloth are slain by goblin kings in single combat, and the drow continually make the mistake of thinking they're smarter than they really are, which leads them to taste defeat time and again and accounts for why they haven't reached the potential their abilities suggest...which, ironically, parallels the surface elves. One of the major themes in my Greyhawk work is that the elves, contrary to popular perception, have never reached the levels of power one would expect with their long lifespans and supposedly vast magical talents; the elves of the world of Oerth are a story of squandered potential.
Golden Age? What Golden Age?
Oh, and the drow are inherently evil due to the pollution of their souls by the orcish god Yurtrus as payback for COrellon Larethian defeating Gruumsh in battle. Remember, this isn't the real world, where evil is not an inborn, inbred trait; yes, these beings are intelligent, thinking creatures, but on this occasion the evil really is in their blood; real-world comparisons don't hold together very well in cases like these, IMO.
-It's been mentioned that the drow have "magical" weapons and inherent spell abilities; while I'm no expert on play balance, it seems clear to me that Gygax gave the drow these abilities so they could offer a decent challenge to the high-level PCs who fight in the GDQ modules. Most of them are low-level fighters or clerics, and wouldn't last very long against powerful, high-level parties. Against strong opposition like the PCs (and the PCs have to be strong if they're going to directly assault a fire giant stronghold), the drow need something to even the playing field...which makes drow generally only suitable for high-level encounters.
Oh, and check my quoteline for the last word on the subject, from the Grand Old Man of D&D himself...
-I rather like Drizzt himself as a character; what annoys the hell out of me is how the rest of the Realms has jumped on top of it. I personally loathe the church of Eilistraee, which I view as little more than a rather blatant excuse for fanservice (drow women dancing naked in the forest-ick), and the simple fact that they don't seem to have any discernable flaws-in many ways, they're a faith of Mary Sues.
-To make matters worse, many sources, including and especially Salvatore, depict the drow as being just short of infallible. Bregan D'aerthe is depicted as being able to seize control of the Citadel of Assassins in Vaasa, with the humans looking like bungling amateurs by comparison, for example, and Jarlaxle himself seems almost omniscient-he always knows the exact thing to say and do, and everything turns out exactly the way he predicted it. He never seems to make a mistake.
Similarly, King Obould Many-Arrows and Gerti Oresldottr do not march to war against humanity by their own volition, but through the manipulations of four drow who had no business being in the plot.
-In my own Greyhawk lore, I take a few steps to redress the balance, such as the drow's arrogance and natural sense of superiority often leading them to make foolish mistakes, such as underestimating orcs and goblins and charging in to attack them without battle plans, and otherwise suffering defeats at the hands of the supposedly crude and stupid goblins, who send the drow running home crying to their spiders.
Priestesses of Lloth are slain by goblin kings in single combat, and the drow continually make the mistake of thinking they're smarter than they really are, which leads them to taste defeat time and again and accounts for why they haven't reached the potential their abilities suggest...which, ironically, parallels the surface elves. One of the major themes in my Greyhawk work is that the elves, contrary to popular perception, have never reached the levels of power one would expect with their long lifespans and supposedly vast magical talents; the elves of the world of Oerth are a story of squandered potential.
Golden Age? What Golden Age?
Oh, and the drow are inherently evil due to the pollution of their souls by the orcish god Yurtrus as payback for COrellon Larethian defeating Gruumsh in battle. Remember, this isn't the real world, where evil is not an inborn, inbred trait; yes, these beings are intelligent, thinking creatures, but on this occasion the evil really is in their blood; real-world comparisons don't hold together very well in cases like these, IMO.
-It's been mentioned that the drow have "magical" weapons and inherent spell abilities; while I'm no expert on play balance, it seems clear to me that Gygax gave the drow these abilities so they could offer a decent challenge to the high-level PCs who fight in the GDQ modules. Most of them are low-level fighters or clerics, and wouldn't last very long against powerful, high-level parties. Against strong opposition like the PCs (and the PCs have to be strong if they're going to directly assault a fire giant stronghold), the drow need something to even the playing field...which makes drow generally only suitable for high-level encounters.
Oh, and check my quoteline for the last word on the subject, from the Grand Old Man of D&D himself...
Graf
Explorer
Because he's a terrible protagonist?
When he appeared in Crystal Shard he was tolerable as a surrogate for the narrator. If RA needed to show you action in some corner of Icewind Dale then look!
Drizz't's there!
Did some NPC villian who had been cool and spooky need to be quietly dispatched because he/she/it was blocking the smooth progression of story?
Drizz't shows up and dispatches it in some kewl way.
As the series progessed he rapidly became absurd. He was the all purpose "plot resolver" a mobile pocket knife. You could skip his appearances, they're all the same.
His only defining traits of any significance are that he's really good with his swords and he comes from an "evil race". He has no personality, no drives, he doesn't develop as a character in any meaningful way. Book after book after book he just becomes more and more insipid. The character has almost become a self-parody. I mean his book titles are things like "I can kill 10,000 orks".
He's the pure wish fulfillment of a 10 year old given fictional form and left to run amok. The beautiful tortured ultimately vapid bishonen of western culture; defined mostly by the fact that he has two cool magical swords, and a magical cat friend and is "all mysterious and stuff".
It's fine if you like him. But wondering why other people don't suggests that you haven't read many actual books of any quality.
When he appeared in Crystal Shard he was tolerable as a surrogate for the narrator. If RA needed to show you action in some corner of Icewind Dale then look!
Drizz't's there!
Did some NPC villian who had been cool and spooky need to be quietly dispatched because he/she/it was blocking the smooth progression of story?
Drizz't shows up and dispatches it in some kewl way.
As the series progessed he rapidly became absurd. He was the all purpose "plot resolver" a mobile pocket knife. You could skip his appearances, they're all the same.
His only defining traits of any significance are that he's really good with his swords and he comes from an "evil race". He has no personality, no drives, he doesn't develop as a character in any meaningful way. Book after book after book he just becomes more and more insipid. The character has almost become a self-parody. I mean his book titles are things like "I can kill 10,000 orks".
He's the pure wish fulfillment of a 10 year old given fictional form and left to run amok. The beautiful tortured ultimately vapid bishonen of western culture; defined mostly by the fact that he has two cool magical swords, and a magical cat friend and is "all mysterious and stuff".
It's fine if you like him. But wondering why other people don't suggests that you haven't read many actual books of any quality.
Samuel Leming
First Post
What? You'd rather that I actually posted that angry rant you've already seen thirty times from at least ten different people? Besides, I was pressed for time.Eeek, mad rant?!
Yeah. I suppose it's cool that he's finally admitting to what many have accused him of doing for the last 18 years.Hobo said:
Sam
Samuel Leming
First Post
I think the idea works if it's done right. Worked for Greyhawk, became silly in FR.
The concept can be done right.
Sam
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