Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder BETA - Some Sizzle, Not Much Steak

[Wulf Ratbane]

The problem though is that, aside from the rogue's sneak attacking, and the ranger/fighter combat abilities, everything in 3e is based on daily powers.

Barbarian rage.
Monk's Stunning Fist.
Bard Song/Spells.
Cleric Turning/Spells.
Wizard/Sor spells.
Druid Wildshape/Spells.

You forgot Paladin smites.

But what is your point? What's the problem with what? I don't even know what you're trying to rebut here.

The 15 minute adventuring day isn't limited to spellcasters, they're simply the most affected by it. A spellcaster without spells feels the pinch more than a barbarian without rage.

That's precisely why 4e fixed this issue the way they did. 4e characters without dailies are still operating at a significant portion of total power.

 

[Kerrick]

Sure, but that's a minor part of it. The BAB and saves are what causes trouble. Monsters are built with the same rules as PCs, but given more HD (far, far, more at higher levels) in order to survive the extreme offensive abilities of the players. Which results in un-winnable grapples, monsters having attack bonuses that far exceed armor classes (which is then turned into more damage via PA), and saves that are largely unbeatable.

Part of the "unwinnable grapple" syndrome is because of the goofy size bonus. I haven't tried it out with the new system yet, though. The attack bonus thing isn't the problem, really - it's the fact that character AC has a glass ceiling, because there's only so much stuff you can stack on, whereas monster HD keep scaling. Add to that the fact that monster AB/saves don't use the epic progression, and...

Yeah, same thing, although the UA version is too harsh IMO. I would have followed the BAB progressions and done +1, +3/4, and +1/2 rather than +1, +1/2, and +1/4. In any case, UA is open content (? or at least it's in the SRD), it's better than the core rules, so... use it! Or take it and improve on it. Otherwise what's the point?

I'm going to use it, but I was thinking of changing the first column to 3/4. Even if it doesn't grant new levels of spells, 1:1 is a bit much, IMO. 3/4, 2/3, 1/2 could work - 3/4 for full casters of the same type of magic (arcane-arcane, divine-divine), 2/3 for bards, paladins, and rangers, and casters of the opposite type, and 1/2 for non-casters. Change the spell save formula to 10 + 1/2 caster level + ability mod, and you've got a workable system.

The scope of the skills is too small, given the number of skill points that you get.

Aha. I don't see why PF didn't boost everyone to have at least 4 skill points/level. It wouldn't have broken the system - by dropping the x4 at first level, you have to recalculate everyone's skill points anyway.

Looking at the game system, I see that they are quite capable of creating new rule systems and also explaining them. But they don't feel well integrated into the game system - they are just subsystems, internally consistent, but not strongly related to the rest of the system. They are mini-games that you have to master.

Care to elaborate? I'm curious what you mean.

with due respect to the OP & others here who have highlighted major things that they would like fixed, PFRPG was never going to tear it up and start again. it was only ever going to be a series of minor changes with (hopefully) cumulative improvements on the play experience.

I was thinking about this last night. This is the Pathfinder RPG. It's not labeled as "D&D 3.75" or even "D&D". So... why didn't they just create a new system and say it's compatible with D&D? Then they could've made whatever changes they wanted, as radical as they wanted, and there wouldn't be any expectations or preconceptions on the part of their fans (like the ever-popular "It's D&D turned up to 11."). The WoW RPG took most of the SRD and reprinted it verbatim, but people aren't calling THAT D&D...

 

[GlassJaw]

Great discussion so far. Lots of good replies.

I haven't kept up with the thread that much since I posted but I did want to address the "playtest it before you knock it" replies.

After going through 3 Alpha versions and now on to Beta, that leads me to believe that what's in Beta is basically what the final version is going to look like. I know there is still room for changes but essentially, it's there.

Basically, Beta means to me that you are testing the features that are there, not addressing features that aren't. That step of the process has already (or should have already) been decided.

To put it simply:

You decide from the start what features you are developing.

Now that Beta is here and I see no changes to the multiclassing rules, no changes to modifier stacking, no changes to high-level play, no changes to the 15-minute adventuring day, and no changes to aid the DM, I'm assuming those "features" won't be in this release. I assume that those things were discussed and agreed upon not to be included.

And that's ok.

All it means is that Pathfinder is not even close to what I was hoping it would be.

 

[Rechan]

You forgot Paladin smites.

Damn! Knew I forgot something. Oh, and Lay on hands too.

But what is your point? What's the problem with what? I don't even know what you're trying to rebut here.

A minor quibble over word choice. My reason for responding was this (bolded mine):

Creating a mechanic that limits certain powers to "daily" use CAN create odd artifacts of play that break verisimilitude.

My point was that the majority of class abilities in 3e were Daily powers. So, a party that uses their class abilities in several fights are going to be weak on abilities, purely because the majority of their abilities are hinged on daily powers.

My point was to 1) Agree with you, and 2) add more emphasis to your argument.

 

[Rechan]

Part of the "unwinnable grapple" syndrome is because of the goofy size bonus.

Not quite. Every monster with improved grapple (and let me tell you, there are a ton) have fat grapple bonuses, not just the big monsters. Not to mention the monsters with abilities that really make grappling freaking dangerous.

 

[Treebore]

The "15 Minute Work Day" has always been incredibly easy to fix. Change the 8+ hours of rest requirement. Change it to 2 hours, or 4. Whatever makes the "Work Day" the right length for you.

Its such an obvious "fix" I have always been baffled by the complaints about "15 minute work days".

Plus the 15 minute work day has always been better then what it is for a party with no mages, and especially no cleric.

Characters who have to heal naturally are lucky to put in 15 minute work WEEKS. So having a "15 Minute Work DAY" is actually a HUGE improvement, thanks to spellcasters.

So changing resting requirements to 2 to 4 hours should get you much closer to what 4E does without having to adapt 4E rules.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

The 15 minute work day isn't a flaw based on abilities or spells or what have you, it's a flaw based on the playing style in which you throw out everything you've got at the first sign of danger. It's a flaw you're going to see in every game in existence if your players want to do it. And if they DO decide to do it, don't let them rest. Teach them to ration. Or even more fun, target the one who does it the most and give them a unique curse that can't just be cured with magic, that gets worse as they rest

 

[Branduil]

The "15 Minute Work Day" has always been incredibly easy to fix. Change the 8+ hours of rest requirement. Change it to 2 hours, or 4. Whatever makes the "Work Day" the right length for you.

Its such an obvious "fix" I have always been baffled by the complaints about "15 minute work days".

Plus the 15 minute work day has always been better then what it is for a party with no mages, and especially no cleric.

Characters who have to heal naturally are lucky to put in 15 minute work WEEKS. So having a "15 Minute Work DAY" is actually a HUGE improvement, thanks to spellcasters.

So changing resting requirements to 2 to 4 hours should get you much closer to what 4E does without having to adapt 4E rules.

All that change does is make spellcasters even more powerful. Right now the only thing even theoretically limiting casters is that they are supposed to spreading their spells over several encounters. Your change makes it easy for them to just blow all their spells up front.

 

[Remathilis]

The 15 minute work day isn't a flaw based on abilities or spells or what have you, it's a flaw based on the playing style in which you throw out everything you've got at the first sign of danger. It's a flaw you're going to see in every game in existence if your players want to do it. And if they DO decide to do it, don't let them rest. Teach them to ration. Or even more fun, target the one who does it the most and give them a unique curse that can't just be cured with magic, that gets worse as they rest

I wasn't going to jump into this, but...

Lets say you are in a zoo armed with a revolver (loaded with two shots) and a bowie knife (don't ask why.) Suddenly, the power goes out and all the animals are free. As you are moving toward the exist, a hungry black bear stands in your way, and is beginning to come at you...

Do you fire your revolver hoping to kill it (but leaving you with no bullets for if you meet the lion?) or try your hand at saving those bullets and use the bowie knife (getting injured in the process, but saving bullets you may or may not need?)

...

Rationing of power makes sense from a game mechanical aspect, but if you are in mortal danger, it makes MUCH more sense to take out your opponent quickly (minimizing casualties/collateral damage) and retreat. This is doubly true if you are in unfamiliar settings or unaware of your oppositions troop strength. (As is typical in most dungeons). As one player I know said; "Blowing your spells and only covering two rooms a day is preferable to the 5,000 gp diamond needed to raise someone for going into that third room."

Sadly, assuming that you are facing encounters of equal strength (not kobolds at 10th level), it makes sense to fire early, fire often, and use your best stuff on the foe you see rather than save if for the foe that MIGHT be around the next corridor...

 

[Treebore]

All that change does is make spellcasters even more powerful. Right now the only thing even theoretically limiting casters is that they are supposed to spreading their spells over several encounters. Your change makes it easy for them to just blow all their spells up front.

I did say it would make it more like 4E without fully adapting 4E rules.

Personally I like the "15 Minute Workday" and the challenges it creates for players. I was just giving a solution. If you don't like it add more to the rule. Say spellcasters can still only recover 1 spell per hour of rest. Or let them recover more, or less.

Rules are made to be changed to what your group likes. Tweak them until they are perfect for you and your group.