Pathfinder 1E What is Pathfinder doing about multi-classing?

[DaveMage]

Sadrik, I am interested in this.

It is not evident from your text, but do you intend for the caster to gain access to his higher spell levels with this? Or are you only increasing caster level?

In my opinion anything that unduly delays your access to high level spells is crippling.

So taking for example the case of a Wiz10/Clr10, which of these are you proposing?

1. He casts spells as a Wiz15/Clr15 (10 + ½ the other class levels).
2. He casts spells as a Wiz10/Clr10 but spells take effect at caster level 15.

The first case is satisfactory. The second case is not; there's no way a 20th level character can compete with a 5th level spell "cap."

I think I'd like the first case if it were two arcane classes (say, Sor10/Wiz10)and the second case if it were 1 arcane and 1 divine (as stated in the example).

However, as to your point regarding the 5th level spell cap in the 2nd example, maybe it would be appropriate to require a feat be selected to raise the spell cap by 1 level. (This feat may be taken multiple times, its effects stack.)

There's also the matter of what effect (if any) this would have on casters like Rangers and Paladins.

Interesting to ponder....

 

[Sadrik]

Sadrik, I am interested in this.

It is not evident from your text, but do you intend for the caster to gain access to his higher spell levels with this? Or are you only increasing caster level?

In my opinion anything that unduly delays your access to high level spells is crippling.

So taking for example the case of a Wiz10/Clr10, which of these are you proposing?

1. He casts spells as a Wiz15/Clr15 (10 + ½ the other class levels).
2. He casts spells as a Wiz10/Clr10 but spells take effect at caster level 15.

The first case is satisfactory. The second case is not; there's no way a 20th level character can compete with a 5th level spell "cap."

My intent is case 1. Cast spells as a 15/15 character. I'd also like this carried over to class features too. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions on how this interacts with PrCs?

 

[freyar]

My intent is case 1. Cast spells as a 15/15 character. I'd also like this carried over to class features too. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions on how this interacts with PrCs?

If somehow you carried this over to class features, aren't you half-using the gestalt rules? Seems like you'd be giving a big benefit to multiclassed over single-classed characters that way.

Edit: Here's another thought: would it help if spell save DCs were tied to CL rather than spell level? I could see boosting CL as you suggest (without changing spells/day) if DCs could increase.

 

[Sadrik]

If somehow you carried this over to class features, aren't you half-using the gestalt rules? Seems like you'd be giving a big benefit to multiclassed over single-classed characters that way.

Edit: Here's another thought: would it help if spell save DCs were tied to CL rather than spell level? I could see boosting CL as you suggest (without changing spells/day) if DCs could increase.

DC generally outstrip Saves anyway:
Case in point:
20th level wizard
16 INT, +5 from levels, +5 book, +6 INT item, INT 32 (+11)

9th level spell +11 + 10 base = DC 30

Fighter 20th
Fort +12, +6 CON, +5 cloak = +23 --> need to roll a 7+
Ref +6, +4 DEX, +5 cloak = +15 --> need to roll a 16+
Will +6, +1 WIS, +5 cloak = +12 --> need to roll a 18+

This is not to untypical the fighter put his +5 book into STR.
In your analysis the 20th level wizard would have +1 DC (20/2=+10) Conceptually I like the stream-lined DC system letting the lower level spells have just as much use at high level as the higher ones. (remember higher level spells have more powerful effects than lower level ones, so, lower the DC of lower level ones makes them doubley suck - less effect and less effectiveness) However, something would have to be done about the saves to balance it out. I like the saves are 1/2 character level + 2 if you have a class with a greater save.

 

[Sadrik]

I don't really consider those theurge-type prestige classes to be a sign of the problem either. Prestige Classes are part of the multiclassing system, allowing abilities and concepts that don't build well with single classes. As such, I really don't see them as a

MT and EK, are exactly a sign of the problem. They were created as a band aid to the system so that players could effectively have a way to create probably some of the most popular character archtypes in 1e and 2e - the fighter/mage and cleric/mage. The system works just fine for non-caster types because BAB stacks and you are just picking and pulling abilities for your character from various classes. However, when you have CL that either has +1 or +0 and it does not stack with any other caster types (ex: sorcerer 1/wizard 1 is not CL 2) you have a very interesting and varied multi-classing system for non-casters but are limited in regard to multi-classing with spell casters. Again, to address the discrepancy they put out the PrCs that effectively band-aided the problem. Their fix was only partial too because now you have to wait until 6th, 7th or even 8th level to actually do your character concept effectively.

 

[freyar]

DC generally outstrip Saves anyway:
Case in point:
20th level wizard
16 INT, +5 from levels, +5 book, +6 INT item, INT 32 (+11)

9th level spell +11 + 10 base = DC 30

Fighter 20th
Fort +12, +6 CON, +5 cloak = +23 --> need to roll a 7+
Ref +6, +4 DEX, +5 cloak = +15 --> need to roll a 16+
Will +6, +1 WIS, +5 cloak = +12 --> need to roll a 18+

This is not to untypical the fighter put his +5 book into STR.
In your analysis the 20th level wizard would have +1 DC (20/2=+10) Conceptually I like the stream-lined DC system letting the lower level spells have just as much use at high level as the higher ones. (remember higher level spells have more powerful effects than lower level ones, so, lower the DC of lower level ones makes them doubley suck - less effect and less effectiveness) However, something would have to be done about the saves to balance it out. I like the saves are 1/2 character level + 2 if you have a class with a greater save.

Well, I was actually speaking with respect to the multiclass caster problem. So a Wiz 10/Cleric 10 might still only have 5th level spells, but perhaps we could find a way to boost the DC of the spells.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Well, I was actually speaking with respect to the multiclass caster problem. So a Wiz 10/Cleric 10 might still only have 5th level spells, but perhaps we could find a way to boost the DC of the spells.

Your point is well taken, but the difference between a 5th level DC and a 9th level DC is 4 points. Casters can make this up in a variety of ways and still be effective.

The greater problem is the magnitude of the spell; the spell caps. Higher level spells affect higher HD creatures, have higher damage caps, etc.

 

[Dragon Claw]

Just for the record there is an alternate class feature for Cleric's in the Pathfinder Campaign Guide called Holy Warrior that gives you access to your deity's favored weapon and full BAB, and d10 hit points in exchange for domain spells and powers.

That to me sounds like a decent fix for a multiclassing fighter/cleric

 

[freyar]

Your point is well taken, but the difference between a 5th level DC and a 9th level DC is 4 points. Casters can make this up in a variety of ways and still be effective.

The greater problem is the magnitude of the spell; the spell caps. Higher level spells affect higher HD creatures, have higher damage caps, etc.

Yeah, I can see the problem. But if you give them too much back in the way of higher level spells, aren't you essentially short-changing the single-classed character?

 

[Sadrik]

Yeah, I can see the problem. But if you give them too much back in the way of higher level spells, aren't you essentially short-changing the single-classed character?

Explain to me how a cleric 2/wizard 3/druid 3/sorcerer 4 is hamstrung.

Now explain to me how awesome a rogue 3/ fighter 4/ barbarian 2/ ranger 3

These two twelfth level characters are vastly different in power level. The warrior type is a major awesome character, the spell-caster thing is just plain awful. IMHO I don't think either of these characters should be awesome they are too generalized. However, the warrior guy is, his list of class features and two weapon fighting, sneak attacking, raging, and specialized, is a combat monster. The other guy has a hard time with goblins. They are both very generalized and that loss of focus should come at an expense. The warrior guy virtually loses nothing, he loses 1 BAB, but his saves get a huge boost and he has no CLs to worry about. The spellcaster guy loses a bunch of BAB, gains a huge save bonus, and has virtually no CLs.

It might make sense to have a hard cap on the total number of classes a character can have including PrCs. Three possibly, expandable with a feat?