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Similarly, the 3e "15 minute workday". IF your DM doesn't believe in trash/warmup fights and actually believes that every fight should be tense for the players (i'm not even talking challenging fight but one that certainly uses more than 20% of a team's resources), how can the blame lie with the players for wanting to rest RIGHT AFTER since they're capability has taken a significant hit just from using up even the lower level buff spells.

Hell Paizo even uses this to their advantage in one of their modules where in a gladiator type combat, the PCs are told battle is coming so to prepare (they buff up) yet some "random" occurences causes the match to be delayed until the buffs run out.

Yet it STILL is the fault of the player and DM?

If fault is defined as having the option to not suffer from a 15 minute workday, then hell yes I would fault the GM and players.

If the GM is creating an adventure where every encounter is designed as a TPK and requires the players to utilize all their resources ... or if the players are tossing around their most powerful spells no matter what they are facing ... then the 15 minute workday will be a reality for them. This is a style of play that can tarnish the enjoyment of any table-top game that has some form of limited resource, and is not a solely 3E phenomenon.
 

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If fault is defined as having the option to not suffer from a 15 minute workday, then hell yes I would fault the GM and players.

If the GM is creating an adventure where every encounter is designed as a TPK and requires the players to utilize all their resources ... or if the players are tossing around their most powerful spells no matter what they are facing ... then the 15 minute workday will be a reality for them. This is a style of play that can tarnish the enjoyment of any table-top game that has some form of limited resource, and is not a solely 3E phenomenon.
If the GM and the players like to be every encounter to be challenging in their own right, a system that doesn't support this without a draw-back like the 15 minute adventuring day, well, then that's certainly a "fault" of the system - or a fault of their choice of the system.
Of course, it is not so great if several of the most acclaimed and played adventure (paths) definitely fall into this "style of play". And looking back to the Dungeon adventure paths, I wonder if Paizo maybe is wrong when they believe that 3E is suited best for the stories they want to tell. At least, if you allow the mechanical resolution of the story elements as a part of the story. :) Of course, since we are now converting their adventure paths to 4E, I can't assess this any more... I just now they work also in 4E...
 

If the GM and the players like to be every encounter to be challenging in their own right, a system that doesn't support this without a draw-back like the 15 minute adventuring day, well, then that's certainly a "fault" of the system - or a fault of their choice of the system.
...

So what happens in 4e when the party's dailies are used and the person with the lowest number of healing surges has none left?

Is this really a fault of the system or the style of the group? I've never seen a system, where damage is tracked and non-replenishable after a certain point, that can totally account for this.
 

So what happens in 4e when the party's dailies are used and the person with the lowest number of healing surges has none left?

Is this really a fault of the system or the style of the group? I've never seen a system, where damage is tracked and non-replenishable after a certain point, that can totally account for this.

Who said it had to be digital?

There seems to be a belief that unless it is TOTALLY negated, the rules are a failure.

As you yourself said, no system will totally account for this, but what you're ignoring, is that a system CAN lessen the effect.

p.s. In my original post, I EXPLICITLY mentioned "challenging but not a TPK fight". Surely there should exist a state between

"This fight is a cakewalk"

AND

"Oh crap, the BBEG won initaitve, we're dead".
 

So what happens in 4e when the party's dailies are used and the person with the lowest number of healing surges has none left?
They call it a day? Is this a trick question?

Is this really a fault of the system or the style of the group? I've never seen a system, where damage is tracked and non-replenishable after a certain point, that can totally account for this.

The problem is not that the day is over eventually. The problem is a little more complex, but probably not hard to grasp. ;)

Some people like individual combats that feel challenging, in an interesting way. Challenging means there is a threat of failure, and only clever play can avoid that. Failure is not limited to death, but the important thing is: We are talking about individual combat. Not the fact that if you screw up in your first encounter you might die in the 3rd. We are talking only about the encounter at hand.
Interesting in this context typically means that "interesting stuff" happens, which in D&D often means special resources are spent - combined with the challenging part, this means they are not just spend, they are "cleverly" spent - you don't fireball individual foes, and so on.
There are other definitions for "interesting", but this is the one that we use in this context.

A CR = EL encounter usually fails to achieve this goal in 3E. Such combats are easy. The Fighter and Rogue can probably deal with the situation at hand, supported by a Cleric that doesn't buff himself (aside from the "all-day" buffs) and a Wizard firing crossbow bolts or using an old Wand of Magic Missile. It is not really exciting. In essence, the clever play is to not spend resources. Which means according to the above statement, the fight was not challenging or interesting. It was just a walk-over. The resources spent will be charges from the Wand of Cure Light Wounds after combat. Again, not interesting. There is nothing clever about healing after combat. ;)

A CR = EL +2 to CR = EL +4 typically achieves this goal in 3E. Such combats are tough. You have to fight multiple enemies or a very strong enemy, and you need to spend your resources cleverly. If you meet groups of foes, fireballs will be flung, if you meet tough individual foes, Hold Monsters or Finger of Death might get used. If you meet dangerous spellcasters, dispels are the order of the day. In addition, high level healing spells, break enchantments and similar spells are used to keep the front-line (sometimes also the back lines) up.
A typical caster prepares for all these possibilities in combat, and also for several out-of-combat scenarios. In such encounters, he will quickly expend his combat-related resources. Especially if he has prepared for more then one possibility, he might feel out of the necessary options soon, but even if he focuses more on general stuff (save or death or damage effects instead of situational spells).

The 15 minute adventure day is exactly what happens if you go this route. you run few, but challenging and interesting encounters per day. But this is at odds with the "versimilitude" of the scenario, or the desired adventure flow. you don#t want to go home after 1 to 2 encounters. Storywise, it just doesn't make sense to have to go home that often. But gameplay-wise, you don't want many "simple" encounters. They go stale soon.

So, the solution to this problem is: Find a game system that allows more challenging encounters per day.
And 4E is such a game system. Yes, we still have daily powers. But for the players of the above kind, this can still avoid their 15 minute adventure day, since they can have interesting encounters _without_ spending their daily resources, since they have encounter resources.

The system still gives a more or less "hard" limit on how long to go on.
But there is challenge even if you don't touch your daily powers:
The threat of failure is not a TPK, but the loss of an individual character.
The interesting stuff is still there, because you have to take into account positioning, movement, encounter powers and at-will powers with "side effects".
The only reasons why the healing surges per day seem to exist in the first place is to define a limit on how long an adventuring day can be.
And daily powers exist to provide a resource you can spend to deal even with very tough enemies (facing a TPK or total party retreat, at least), or to help you if you made some great error.

..

There is another type of player that runs into the 15 minute adventure day - the one that doesn't understand or care for resource management, and just wants to crush his opposition. Maybe the 4E encounter powers can help him in that regard, because he can combine his desire to "kick ass" with resource management. But maybe it doesn't, like when he just counts the damage dice he gets to roll when using a daily power. *shrugs*. That is not the type of player 4E particularly addresses. But I say this player is rare, anyway. And he should not be used as the only or primary example of a player that has a "problem" with the 15 minute adventure day.

There is also another subgroup of players - the guy that expected a wizard to cast spells a lot, and while he might still appreciate resource management, he wants to do something magic each round. He might be fine with the new at-will powers for Pathfinder spellcasters. He will certainly fine with the At-Wills in 4E, too. (In that regard.)

---
Why are we still talking about the 15 minute adventure day? Didn't we had these discussions often enough? *grumble*
 

Note that Cleave allows to score two attacks now, both at highest attack bonus. Also, kindly note that requirement for additional was relaxed to "If you hit".
In other words, Cleave is about getting additional attacks (at lower BAB) or about trading iterative attacks for better overall chance to hit. Sensible tradeoff, if you have Improved Critical or Power Attack.
Compare that to the original Cleave feat:

Cleave [General]
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack.
Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.
Special: A fighter may select Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats.
The original feat can be used as part of a full attack action - if you dropped a creature with your first attack, you could make a second attack at the same BAB. And the same on the second iterative, and the third, and the fourth.

With PF's Cleave, you can make ONE attack as a full-round action; if it hits, you get the second attack. Whoopdedoo. It's a great option for low levels, when you've only got one attack - you're not losing anything - but as you get more attacks, it loses its luster. I'd rather have the option to make a full attack action, with the chance of dropping an opponent and getting a bonus attack. Their Cleave will just ensure that every 2-hander with Power Attack and Imp Crit will take it.

Re: the 15-minute workday

I think it's a combination of factors: the players, the DM, and adventure design. DMs should know their players and the players' PCs (unless it's a brand new group) and design adventures accordingly. Even when use pregen adventures, he should be able to tweak things here and there to suit the group's style.


As far as making every encounter interesting: If you're having multiple encounters a day and all of them are EL +2, then yeah - it's going to drain their resources. Not all of them should be, though. A good DM (hell, even an average DM) should be able to look at his party and say "Hmm, they're pretty beat up - let's throw an EL -2 at them - it'll still challenge them without tearing them up." IOW, scale the encounters to fit the PCs. Drop a couple enemies from the next group if you think the PCs won't be able to handle them. Toss a wand of cure wounds into the next hoard. Whatever. The players won't know any better, and they'll still be challenged without getting the impression that the DM's beating up on them or that they must rest.
 



Compare that to the original Cleave feat:[...]
With PF's Cleave, you can make ONE attack as a full-round action; if it hits, you get the second attack. Whoopdedoo. It's a great option for low levels, when you've only got one attack - you're not losing anything - but as you get more attacks, it loses its luster.
I'd rather have the option to make a full attack action, with the chance of dropping an opponent and getting a bonus attack. Their Cleave will just ensure that every 2-hander with Power Attack and Imp Crit will take it.
In many campaigns with characters over 10th level, subsequent iterative attacks are wasted due to high armor class of opponents.
Also, against low HD monsters, iterative attacks plus 3.5 Cleave equal way too many rolls.

For those two reasons, I heartily applaud PF RPG Cleave.

[...][15 minute workday][...]

My players know that I will not cut them any slack. On the other hand, I do not build encounters just to make them use all resources - PCs are often allowed to choose your battles, so they somehow manage. Also, they have some one-shot items to save the day in case something really bad happens.

Regards,
Ruemere
 

Treebore, FTW.

I couldn't agree more with the drive to make DnD more survivable. It's supposed to be tough. You aren't supposed to be able to just beat anything that comes your way, you have to outsmart them, use tactics. I cannot count the number of times a group had a helluva time with an encounter they could have easily reasoned themselves through.

Video games have caused people wanting things a certain way. But that's not what tabletop gaming is about.

Ah yes, the "PC is just a paper-doll for the player to be challenged by proxy with" that brought us Save-or-die, the Tomb of Horrors, RBDMs, and Bob the Fighter IV.

Because heaven forbid the players want to develop characters with long-reaching story goals, backgrounds, motives, friendships, political aspirations, relationships, and all the things that make them living, breathing characters.

Yeah, sometimes they die. Sometimes its by bad luck, or poor judgment. However, the "PCs are as disposable as Kleenex" defense falls short if you want anything more out of D&D.
 

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