Hjorimir
Adventurer
It's funny, becuase it feels like criticizing 4e is all the rage here on ENWorld...I wonder how much of these perceptions stem from our individual tastes.
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- Thread starter Celtavian
- Start date
It's funny, becuase it feels like criticizing 4e is all the rage here on ENWorld...I wonder how much of these perceptions stem from our individual tastes.
zen_hydra
First Post
The atmosphere of EN World has taken a turn for the worse since the release of 4E.
It saddens me that threads like this one are far from isolated events.
The community used to be much friendlier here, but it seems to me that EN World is almost as hostile as rpg.net nowadays.
I am starting to not enjoy coming here anymore.
My condolences to the OP.
It saddens me that threads like this one are far from isolated events.
The community used to be much friendlier here, but it seems to me that EN World is almost as hostile as rpg.net nowadays.
I am starting to not enjoy coming here anymore.
My condolences to the OP.
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knightofround
First Post
You know, one thing I've noticed is that the people who hate 4E the most are typically people whose favorite archaetype is mage. II think you have a good point with blaming the "balanced" nature of 4E for turning alot of people off. By giving fighter/rogue types abilities they can use in combat, it has cut off much of the wizard/cleric "specialness".
The people who like fighter/rogue/cleric types tend to enjoy it though. Oh, theres a few rogues who will grumble about the new skill system, but for the most part they're happy to have more "cool stuff to do" rather than "I try to flank the nearest enemy and poke it with my pointy thingy. Until everything is dead". Interestingly, it seems like people who really like clerics don't seem to get too upset with 4E because healing surges finally let a cleric do more stuff than, you know, cure X wounds all the time.
One gripe I do hear alot is the arbitrary distinction between encounter powers and daily powers. I think thats a genuine gripe, as its yet another abstract concept crammed into D&D. (Much like hitpoints, initiative, and the d20) But I think it is more exciting to be doing cool stuff every round rather than doing the fighter "fullround attack, yawn, fullround attack, yawn" or the "waa my wizard's out of spells so we have to stop for the day".
I just think of encounter powers being like limited, but re-usably hero points.
Although yeah it is kinda bizzare that you can only shield bash 1/combat, thats why when I DM 4E I'll probably houserule it that you can use powers multiple times up to the limit. The "five minute stopwatch to refresh encounter powers" doesn't seem more metagame-y than initiative (cmon, real combat doesn't have turns) or that all spells conviently take only 6 seconds to cast.
My personal gripe with 4E is how magical items changed. The pricing is especially ridiculous. Why would anyone bother making a Frost +4 weapon for 85k gc when you could make two +4 weapons for the same price; or ten +3 weapons.
But no edition is perfect. :: shrug :: there's alot of stuff I never liked about 2E/3E either.
The people who like fighter/rogue/cleric types tend to enjoy it though. Oh, theres a few rogues who will grumble about the new skill system, but for the most part they're happy to have more "cool stuff to do" rather than "I try to flank the nearest enemy and poke it with my pointy thingy. Until everything is dead". Interestingly, it seems like people who really like clerics don't seem to get too upset with 4E because healing surges finally let a cleric do more stuff than, you know, cure X wounds all the time.
One gripe I do hear alot is the arbitrary distinction between encounter powers and daily powers. I think thats a genuine gripe, as its yet another abstract concept crammed into D&D. (Much like hitpoints, initiative, and the d20) But I think it is more exciting to be doing cool stuff every round rather than doing the fighter "fullround attack, yawn, fullround attack, yawn" or the "waa my wizard's out of spells so we have to stop for the day".
I just think of encounter powers being like limited, but re-usably hero points.
Although yeah it is kinda bizzare that you can only shield bash 1/combat, thats why when I DM 4E I'll probably houserule it that you can use powers multiple times up to the limit. The "five minute stopwatch to refresh encounter powers" doesn't seem more metagame-y than initiative (cmon, real combat doesn't have turns) or that all spells conviently take only 6 seconds to cast.
My personal gripe with 4E is how magical items changed. The pricing is especially ridiculous. Why would anyone bother making a Frost +4 weapon for 85k gc when you could make two +4 weapons for the same price; or ten +3 weapons.
But no edition is perfect. :: shrug :: there's alot of stuff I never liked about 2E/3E either.
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Philotomy Jurament
First Post
To the OP:
I know how you feel, although I stepped off the "current edition bandwagon" quite a while ago (long before 4E's release).
My take on it is that it isn't a big deal, even if it feels like a big deal to you, right now. I think that will pass. You can still play D&D and be part of the D&D community without playing the current edition. And there are new products, gamer communities, and even magazines supporting the older editions. Heck, I run TSR-era D&D, and there is a suprising amount of support and new product out there for that. I expect 3E will have just as much, if not more.
Play what you like and enjoy it.
I know how you feel, although I stepped off the "current edition bandwagon" quite a while ago (long before 4E's release).
My take on it is that it isn't a big deal, even if it feels like a big deal to you, right now. I think that will pass. You can still play D&D and be part of the D&D community without playing the current edition. And there are new products, gamer communities, and even magazines supporting the older editions. Heck, I run TSR-era D&D, and there is a suprising amount of support and new product out there for that. I expect 3E will have just as much, if not more.
Play what you like and enjoy it.
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Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad
Celtavian, I appreciate your concerns about 4e on a theoretical level after having read the rules.
I strongly encourage you to play the game (a few times) before assuming that the game plays as you imagine it will play having read the rules.
While opinions of course vary, one comment that comes up with great frequency from first time players of 4e is that it plays better, and more fun, than they anticipated having purely read the rules. And there are things that, when combined with each other, end up working better than the individual parts seemed to work when reading them.
Put aside for a moment D&D itself. I am sure in your life that you have encountered things that you thought would work out one way based on your knowledge of the people and facts in question, but which actually turned out fairly different than you predicted. D&D 4e, for a lot of people, tends to work out like that.
Give the game a try a few times before concluding it's not for you. You may be pleasantly surprised.
If not, I wish you luck in finding a different gaming group that does better meet your tastes. I have heard a lot of good things about Pathfinder, for example.
I strongly encourage you to play the game (a few times) before assuming that the game plays as you imagine it will play having read the rules.
While opinions of course vary, one comment that comes up with great frequency from first time players of 4e is that it plays better, and more fun, than they anticipated having purely read the rules. And there are things that, when combined with each other, end up working better than the individual parts seemed to work when reading them.
Put aside for a moment D&D itself. I am sure in your life that you have encountered things that you thought would work out one way based on your knowledge of the people and facts in question, but which actually turned out fairly different than you predicted. D&D 4e, for a lot of people, tends to work out like that.
Give the game a try a few times before concluding it's not for you. You may be pleasantly surprised.
If not, I wish you luck in finding a different gaming group that does better meet your tastes. I have heard a lot of good things about Pathfinder, for example.
tankschmidt
Explorer
I hear you, buddy. Back in 2000, I felt exactly like do now. Keep playing your game, and you'll be surprised to find how many people are publishing new products for it. The only downside to playing an OOP game is that it's harder to find players. A lot of times, you just have to decide whether you'd rather keep playing with your favorite group or with your favorite rules.
He has posted his opinion publically on a discussion forum. He doesn't get to forbid conversation of his public post, nor to only have people who agree with him post; that would be a personal blog, not a discussion forum.
Some people have been a little overzealous in their disagreement, true, and that's not a good thing. But posting publically on a discussion board and not expecting contrary opinion? Not gonna happen, and nor should it.
I'm sure if the OP REALLY felt he wanted to prevent discussion of his post, he'd have put it in a blog somewhere where he can moderate the replies to suit him.
Were you just expecting silence, and the occasional "me too"? Now that would be a waste of my bandwith!
National Acrobat
First Post
C'mon, I can't be the only person running DnD that threw this rule out of the window and had dragons be the big time bad guys that they are supposed to be, and let them breath whenever they felt like it? I've never understood limiting this. I've never played with a gm who did either.
I also agree with many of the posters here. Play the old versions. My group tried 4E and couldn't stand it, so we merely started a new 1E campaign last week using the Harn Setting, and are having a blast.
EATherrian
First Post
Personally when I did play I would choose the fighter because I didn't want to think much. I mostly DM, and when I played I wanted simplicity. One of my problems with 4E is that now all of the classes are the mage. They all have powers and power management, and that turns me off. I haven't played enough to get a total picture of the game, but that is one thing that really irritates me.
Jürgen Hubert
First Post
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