Let's talk about minions...

[cangrejoide]

Okay, so I have read a lot of thread that casts several different perceptions of what are minions. Lets talk about our perceptions of minions and compare, try to reach a consensus.

I'll start

Minions are just a rule mechanic to enhance and add a cinematic feel to the game. It emulates our heroes wading through throngs of bad guys in one epic battle.

One of the most talked about things about minions is the 1 hit point rule. The 1 hit point rules just means that the minion will die from 1 hit. 1 hit point its just an abstraction that works when you use same level ooponents. If you put a level 20 demon minion against a farmer boy with a rock. That minion is a level 20 demon and will not fall down from taking 1 hit point from the rock and will promptly eat the little boy as all demons do.

But if you stand him against the epic heroes ( level 20+) he will take on his minion aspect and become hero fodder.

Maybe the reason minions are getting this much flack is because many DMs are just running them as normal monsters and are not using them to enhance the fight.

Now what's your view on minions?

 

[Crothian]

I like minions but I have played other games that use this type of foe to gret effect.

What I like about the 1 HP rule is that it makes even the non combat specialists feel like they can take down creatures in a single blow. It is fun even for the advnetureing acedemic to fall a monster with one jab from his walking staff.

 

[Cadfan]

I like the concept of minions a whole lot. The ability to run large combat without grinding things to a halt is great. Even better is the ability to run weak adversaries without having to vastly multiply my own effort as the DM. "Did they hit it? Ok, its dead." Done.

I do feel that some editing is needed on the details of exactly what kills a minion.

I mean, last fight our wizard cast a fireball that dealt 17 damage on a hit. There weren't any minions present, but she did miss on a hyena, dealing 8 damage. Had a minion been present, it wouldn't have taken any damage at all. Meanwhile, she can cast Cloud of Daggers, which has a secondary effect that doesn't require an attack roll and which creates a zone that deals 2 damage (for her). That automatically kills a minion.

Its no big deal at our present level, but once we get to higher levels it may become one. There are a fair amount of abilities out there that deal small but non zero amounts of damage without the need for attack rolls. If this weren't the case, things would run flawlessly, but, well, it is the case.

I may institute a rule that minions DO take damage from missed attacks, but have a general damage resistance equal to half their level. Its not perfect- it neuters certain "minion killers" like cleave or greenflame blade, but mechanically all it does is redefine the basic minion principle- an enemy that is weak enough that he goes down if you get in a good hit.

The only serious problem with it is that the way it would scale with certain attacks. At level 1, cleave would slaughter minions. And it would keep slaughtering them until level 11, for a fighter with an 18 strength who improves it regularly. At level 12 and onwards minion damage resistance would surpass it.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

I like minions but I have played other games that use this type of foe to gret effect.

What I like about the 1 HP rule is that it makes even the non combat specialists feel like they can take down creatures in a single blow. It is fun even for the advnetureing acedemic to fall a monster with one jab from his walking staff.

I've used minions/mooks befire, but rather sparingly, and only when I wanted the combat to be about wading through hordes of monsters rather than a pitched fight against equal opponents. I don't much care for the combination of the frequency with which they seem to be used in 4e and the 1 HP and dead mechanic (and that interaction with various powers).

I'm considering replacing that in 4e with a save-or-die mechanic for mooks that scales somewhat with level. I like the greater unpredictability, and it won't extend their lifespan so much that is seriously screws with the encounter difficulty, I don't think.

 

[Engilbrand]

I love minions. You hit the nail on the head. They're normal monsters that just happen to be less effective against PCs. Why? Because it's a game. Why do so many people fall so quickly in action movies? Because it's a movie. Minions are great fillers. The philosophy behind 4e is rather straightforward. PCs interact differently with the environment. Therefore, minions are special monsters that die in one hit. I still don't get how people are confused about this.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

ITherefore, minions are special monsters that die in one hit. I still don't get how people are confused about this.

Who's confused? Having a bone to pick with a particular implementation doesn't imply a lack of understanding of the concept.

 

[Jhaelen]

Now what's your view on minions?

I share your view exactly!

What may be initially difficult to grasp is that minions only have 1hp when pcs of the appropriate level are around. Once you've grasped that, all of the criticism I've seen so far simply evaporates. It's a great concept.

 

[Stalker0]

cangrejoide hit it in 1 as far as I'm concerned.

A legion devil against a party of 5th level character is not a minion, he's a monstrous...probably unbeatable encounter.

As for the concern with small damage still killing minions at high levels I have to ask....aren't your at-will powers suppose to to remain useful at high levels?

I mean cloud of daggers does piddly damage at high levels compared to other powers, but it can still kill minions so it remains useful. Cleave is the same way. The 8-10 damage it likely does to high level opponents is a drop in the bucket. But it kills minions, so its worth keeping on the sheet.


The only space I could see for change would be if you use a power that's X levels above the minion level, it dies even with half damage. I'm okay with saying that meteor swarm will autokill a hoard of basic goblin minions even with the half damage.

But other than that, I think minions are one of the best additions to 4e, and I see little reason to drastically change them.

 

[cangrejoide]

I mean, last fight our wizard cast a fireball that dealt 17 damage on a hit. There weren't any minions present, but she did miss on a hyena, dealing 8 damage. Had a minion been present, it wouldn't have taken any damage at all. Meanwhile, she can cast Cloud of Daggers, which has a secondary effect that doesn't require an attack roll and which creates a zone that deals 2 damage (for her). That automatically kills a minion.

In your fireball example: The fireball did do damage to the minions, it just didn't do enough to kill them. Remember that the 1 hit point is just an abstraction. Minions don't have 1 hit point, they are assumed to have as many hit points as your attack did in damage. So when you miss your fireball hit it just didn't do enough damage to kill them.

The Cloud of daggers power ( and many like it (cleave, etc)) are meant to kill minions, while not being that good on main enemies ( non minions). Its all part of the design of the game.

I think that minions should not have been given hit points at all, and that the ephemeral nature of their existence would had been better explained.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I use minions in a variety of ways:

-The most common method is to emulate specific dramatic and cinematic events, so mobs of people trying to swarm over the PCs for example. It is a very nice way to create very specific scenes that are still balanced and fun to play.

-To cause a form of "combat-randomness", for example I may throw a minion into a group of Orcs. This minion is the one who slips on the mud and is impaled or is distracted and beheaded, etc.

-To showcase the growth of the PCs, so yeah a creature that used to be extremely powerful is now a minion. Since, while it is still deadly the PCs have learnt how to combat it extremely effectively.