Let's talk about minions...

[Grimstaff]

I enjoy minions, and my players enjoy killing them.

I use a simple mechanic of 2hp per minion level (ie a 7th lvl minion has 14hp) when I need to determine the effect of "questionable" damage, like weak AoE, falling down stairs, thorny bushes, etc, but otherwise the 1hp (or "one successful hit", as I think of it) minion as written is working just fine.

 

[cangrejoide]

-To showcase the growth of the PCs, so yeah a creature that used to be extremely powerful is now a minion. Since, while it is still deadly the PCs have learnt how to combat it extremely effectively.

I read somewhere that you could actually treat any creature 5 levels lower than pcs as minions.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I read somewhere that you could actually treat any creature 5 levels lower than pcs as minions.

The only problem with that though is, that it decreases the amount of damage a fair amount/decreases the chance of missing a attack.

So, if the monster is supposed to still be deadly but the PCs have learnt say a specific weakness to kill it, then it doesn't work as well.

Oh, and remembered my favourite method of using minions. Stealth Kills. If I know my players are sneaking into say a fortress, the guards become minions for sneak attacks and become regular in normal combat.

 

[jdrakeh]

Now what's your view on minions?

I like them (of course I liked them when FGU introduced the concept back in Bushido, as well). The idea of dozens (or even hundreds) of foes falling beneath the swing of a hero's sword is a well-established literary convention, as well as something that many longtime D&D players I know had created house rules for years ago. It's nice to see the convention finally get some official recognition, though D&D 4e was a few too many decades late bringing the concept to the table to claim any innovation. Still, I'd rather have it in the books, than in a three-ring binder.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

Don't like them.

I don't like the Buffy the Vampire feel of them. I liked buffy but that was goofy, not heroic, fantasy IMO. I can't wrap my brain around the idea of a 15th level minion who dies with the thrust of a walking stick thrust at it by a 15th level scholar type while that same scholar could never do the same thing to a 6th level fighter even though a 6th level fighter is supposed to be a weakling compared to any 15th level character. But if this 15th level minion turned its attention on a 6th level fighter everything falls apart. IMO minions can be most effectively used when sending children, peasant mobs or a horde of housecats at the PCs.

IMO minions are a bizarre abstraction that is an attempt to make PCs seem heroic when in fact I haven't seen a problem with PCs looking heroic in over 23yrs of DMing. Seems like a solution where there wasn't a problem. There are questions like what happens when a minion punches a minion or what happens when a minion turns its attention to a lower level individual nearby and other questions that can only be solved by handwaving.

One of my players asked me (to paraphrase) during some 4e playtesting "So what if we can take down an army of creatures that die with one hit?" Its a play style neither myself nor my players like because my game presupposes a world that exists outside the PCs and that reality doesn't suddenly shift because the PCs engage it. I think a consistancy of reality is important for a believable setting and immersive game.

I get that HPs are abstract (which is why I prefer WP/VP) but then there are abstractions so abstract I feel that I might as well just describe a battle in order to make the PCs feel heroic as opposed to sending balloons at them pop no matter what the PCs do to them, no matter what type of creature they are.



Wyrmshadows

 

[Cadfan]

As for the concern with small damage still killing minions at high levels I have to ask....aren't your at-will powers suppose to to remain useful at high levels?

I mean cloud of daggers does piddly damage at high levels compared to other powers, but it can still kill minions so it remains useful. Cleave is the same way.

Well, I disagree that the only use of at will powers like Cloud of Daggers or Cleave is for killing minions, even at high levels. The damage is piddly... in comparison to what? Your encounter powers? That's to be expected.

Remember that the 1 hit point is just an abstraction.

Right, I'm just saying that the abstraction isn't as internally consistent as I'd like it to be.

What's the difference between a power which:

1. Creates a zone which does X damage for one round, and also allows an attack against each enemy in the zone, dealing Y damage on a hit.

2. On a hit deals X+Y damage, but on a miss deals only X damage.

Almost nothing, really. Except the first kills minions without needing an attack roll, and the second doesn't.

 

[cangrejoide]

I like them (of course I liked them when FGU introduced the concept back in Bushido, as well). The idea of dozens (or even hundreds) of foes falling beneath the swing of a hero's sword is a well-established literary convention, as well as something that many longtime D&D players I know had created house rules for years ago. It's nice to see the convention finally get some official recognition, though D&D 4e was a few too many decades late bringing the concept to the table to claim any innovation. Still, I'd rather have it in the books, than in a three-ring binder.

My first look at minions was with fengshui way back when, I own Bushido but never played it. I may just dig it up just to read about how they handled them.

 

[frankthedm]

Low level minions are great. Mooks to massacre and a great way to emulate the classic Number Appearing rates that pitted the players against dozens, sometimes hundreds of foes. I am not keen on the idea of paragon and epic level minions however since the notion of foes that seem to always keep with me pace no matter what level I am really pisses me off.

Also somewhat disappointed there are not more minions, notably minion versions of more monsters to represent young critters.

 

[frankthedm]

double post

 

[Obryn]

Also somewhat diapointed there are not more minions, notably minion versions of more monsters to represent young critters.

I wish there were a minion template I could easily slap onto any monster in the book, personally.

-O