Pathfinder 1E Hit Point Inflation and Power Creep in Pathfinder

[JRRNeiklot]

I agree, it's not any one thing that turns me off, I can always house rule hit points back to like I want them, but add that to more feats, no racial penalties, and every thing else that is getting pumped up that frankly didn't need it, and I have to house rule the entire game. There comes a point of diminishing returns where it just ain't worth it.

 

[Phlebas]

Personally, the biggest source of powercreep isn't the HP but the added +2 to racial scores AND the increase in the number of feats.

Mainly because, unlike a +2 to STR which pretty much scales linearly, thanks to how magic works, the racial ability of elves and the increased number of feats have a weird uncalculable effect on the game.

I havent done the calculations myself but someone else posted that the Pathfinder Beta points buy system compensated for the extra +2. (though the range of points buy from Low to Epic may make this academic)

If you roll then its probably not going to be as important as the inherent die variation

the effect of more feats..is weird & uncalculable yes, but my 2c is that it will just allow you to complete more than one feat chain, and so become a two-trick pony rather than one.... but this plus the new specials is definitely something i want to keep an eye on over the playtesting.

I guess one of the advantages to PFRP being OGL based is that individual sub-systems are simple enough to ignore if they don't suit your campaign

 

[Sacrificial Lamb]

I'm working on a game of my own, and one thing that occurred to me was that a typical housecat is almost a match for a typical 1st-level Commoner. I reasoned that the problem could be solved if we gave all creatures a Hit Point bonus equal to their base Strength score.

For example, a housecat would receive 3 bonus Hit Points (3 Strength), while that 1st-level commoner might receive 11 bonus Hit Points (11 Strength).

This might seem like overkill as far as Hit Point inflation goes, so to make the game grittier, we could keep all Hit Dice in the d4, d6, and d8 range. Furthermore, we could lower the Massive Damage Save to a number equaling the character's base Strength. If a character a 15 Strength, he'd have to roll a saving throw if he suffers 15 damage from a single attack. This is doable if we're looking for something more dangerous....

 

[Tilenas]

I'm working on a game of my own, and one thing that occurred to me was that a typical housecat is almost a match for a typical 1st-level Commoner. I reasoned that the problem could be solved if we gave all creatures a Hit Point bonus equal to their base Strength score.

For example, a housecat would receive 3 bonus Hit Points (3 Strength), while that 1st-level commoner might receive 11 bonus Hit Points (11 Strength).

This might seem like overkill as far as Hit Point inflation goes, so to make the game grittier, we could keep all Hit Dice in the d4, d6, and d8 range. Furthermore, we could lower the Massive Damage Save to a number equaling the character's base Strength. If a character a 15 Strength, he'd have to roll a saving throw if he suffers 15 damage from a single attack. This is doable if we're looking for something more dangerous....

That would put Str waaay over the top. It is already the most important ability score (along with Dex, says the DMG). Can't tie it to Con, as cats would again have the same hit points as humans.
What you could do, however, is create a table of bonus HP according to size and type. So a medium humanoid would get (say) 8 HP (same as humanoid HD) and a small animal would get 4 HP (d8 HD and half because it's small). The only problem I see here is that it makes your low lvl undead minions quite powerful, as they already have the d12 to go with. Maybe undead, elementals and constructs should be left out in this table.

 

[Sacrificial Lamb]

That would put Str waaay over the top. It is already the most important ability score (along with Dex, says the DMG). Can't tie it to Con, as cats would again have the same hit points as humans.
What you could do, however, is create a table of bonus HP according to size and type. So a medium humanoid would get (say) 8 HP (same as humanoid HD) and a small animal would get 4 HP (d8 HD and half because it's small). The only problem I see here is that it makes your low lvl undead minions quite powerful, as they already have the d12 to go with. Maybe undead, elementals and constructs should be left out in this table.

I respectfully disagree. Strength is commonly misrepresented as the most important stat when it really isn't. I'm only proposing that Strength provides a one-time bonus to Hit Points, not a level-by-level bonus like Constitution. Granted, Strength has a mild effect on encumbrance, melee damage, and some skills, however. Constitution is a bigger deal as it drastically affects Hit Points, Saving Throws, and skills. The other ability scores have their advantages too, but we won't delve into that now..

Your way might work as well. Truth is, I'm not opposed to bonus Hit Points for 1st-level characters, if only to accentuate the difference between small animals, and low-level Commoners. It's something to think about..

 

[AllisterH]

I havent done the calculations myself but someone else posted that the Pathfinder Beta points buy system compensated for the extra +2. (though the range of points buy from Low to Epic may make this academic)

It does and it doesn't.

If you use the PAhfinder version to build say a half-orc barbarian, you end up exactly the same as before.


It's the weird effect INT has on the game that is problematic.

 

[Tilenas]

I'm only proposing that Strength provides a one-time bonus to Hit Points, not a level-by-level bonus like Constitution.

...

Truth is, I'm not opposed to bonus Hit Points for 1st-level characters, if only to accentuate the difference between small animals, and low-level Commoners.

It is only a one-time-bonus, but tying it to the score of the ability can be dangerous, as it generates a huge range of possible values (1-20 that is). I'd use a fixed number + (Str) modifier instead to keep the figures closer together and stay in line with the rest of the ruleset (which uses almost exclusively the modifier when determining statistics).

Well, you seem to be quite bold in the introduction of variant rules, so I'm sure you'll find a solution.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

one thing that occurred to me was that a typical housecat is almost a match for a typical 1st-level Commoner....

A housecat should do no damage to anything larger than a mouse. A painful scratch, that might well get infected or inflict disease, but no hit point damage at all. OR do 1d2-1 with a minimum of 0 if you must have it do damage. Familiars would of course be exempt from the above and do normal damage.

Some things just shouldn't do hit point damage. Stubbing your toe, a scratch from a cat, skinning your knuckles when a wrench slips, etc.

 

[Phlebas]

A housecat should do no damage to anything larger than a mouse. A painful scratch, that might well get infected or inflict disease, but no hit point damage at all. OR do 1d2-1 with a minimum of 0 if you must have it do damage. Familiars would of course be exempt from the above and do normal damage.

Some things just shouldn't do hit point damage. Stubbing your toe, a scratch from a cat, skinning your knuckles when a wrench slips, etc.

Cats only do d2-4 damage (d3-4 if it full attacks you and gets a bite)
MM p270

I tend to rule that rather than minimum 1, if the str mod takes it to 0 or less it becomes 1 non-lethal damage (painful scratch etc).

of course if you believe that urban myth about the guy hospitalised by a kitten (head under the sink fixing a blocked pipe - only wearing a robe and kitten wandered under and sunk claws into what was dangling down - cracked skull on sink trying to leap to his feat) then you have to allow sneak attack damage

 

[Phlebas]

It does and it doesn't.

If you use the PAhfinder version to build say a half-orc barbarian, you end up exactly the same as before.


It's the weird effect INT has on the game that is problematic.

Not sure i follow you, INT affects skills (but already major revamp) and spell DC's for wizards (+1 DC - nice but not game breaking). plus your bonus level spells at ~5th - 9th level allowing you to postpone the +2 int item a level or two

if anything the 'always on' bonus (STR,DEX,CON) seem more powerful but thats why you get one physical & one mental bonus for each race.

I'm feel like i'm missing something here?