Cheating cheaters

[ColonelHardisson]

I'm going to take a completely different approach to the "different playstyle" angle...

It might be an indication that she's more interested in a narrative rather than gamist or simulationist playstyle. A lot of very narrative-oriented games allow players a lot more direct control over their character's success. The most abstract narrative system often using bidding of some form, in which a declared action always succeeds unless someone "outbids" the declarer.

That's an interesting suggestion (though I'm sure you'd agree it doesn't necessarily remedy whatever motivated cheating). It's too bad the Amber Diceless RPG (whic I get the feeling you might have had in mind) isn't currently in print, or I'd suggest it as the perfect type of game for the player in question.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

That's an interesting suggestion (though I'm sure you'd agree it doesn't necessarily remedy whatever motivated cheating). It's too bad the Amber Diceless RPG (whic I get the feeling you might have had in mind) isn't currently in print, or I'd suggest it as the perfect type of game for the player in question.

IME cheaters cheat. They cheat to win and will find any means to do so. I don't think the cheater is more a narrativist than a gamist or a simulationist....she's a lying cheaterist.

Her real problem is that her perspective is one of winning vs. losing in a RPing game. There is also the element of competition (player vs. player/player vs. DM) that I see in players that cheat. They either want to stand out via their cheating (ooh, look what my PC did!) or they want to 'beat' the adversary who is ultimately the DM.



Wyrmshadows

 

[JeffB]

OMG, some of the comments in this thread are absolutely ridiculous


My opinion- Call the cheater out...hard. If she doesn't shape up, kick her out of the group. Losing a good player sucks. Tolerating cheating as a "preferred playstyle" sucks more.

 

[WayneLigon]

There are no real "risks" here. It's a game. Imaginary success and imaginary failure. That's it. What's the big deal?

Have your own fun. Don't tell others how to have theirs.

The point is that the cheater's idea of having fun directly and negatively impacts my fun and the fun of everyone else at that table.

How is it that this is unclear?

 

[That One Guy]

Wow, that's a long thread.

To the OP, yup. Good plan. I'd suggest two more subtle methods if you cannot see her dice easily. Make her sit closer, or have a few people near her watch. If she rolls junk, have them tell you so you know for certain. Then try the cheering method, big dice method, or being a friend and saying 'hey, this isn't good.' You know her better than we do.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Here's the playstyle issue right here. How random should it be? What if you think it should be less random than other people do? Why is there only one right amount of random?

The amount of random is determined by the rules of the system you play. This woman has agreed to play in a game that has her roll a die and add a number. If she decides to cheat at this by lying about the number rolled on the die, this is cheating. If the woman has a fundemental disagreement about the idea of rolling a die and adding a number, she should probably play a different system.

What Xath said.

People can prefer different levels of randomness in their games, and there is nothing wrong with that. But it is socially unacceptable to agree (explicitly or implicitly) to a set of rules, and then surreptitiously violate those rules. We call such behavior "cheating," and you can count me among those posters who are frankly astonished that we even have to explain this.

If you don't want to play by the rules, don't agree to play by the rules. Say it up front: "By the way, I'm not going to play by the rules, you know."

When you put it like that, it sounds ridiculous...doesn't it?

 

[Crothian]

Losing a good player sucks.

Yes it does, but a cheater is not a good player.

 

[Set]

I am curious, though. When did being dishonest become categorized as a "preferred playstyle"? Are we really becoming so squishy as a society and afraid of hurting people's feelings that we don't want to call cheating what it really is? Rolling a 2 and knowingly telling people that you got a 20 is just plain dishonest. Especially when the results are so wildly different.

Total agreement. I loathe the news these days, because they'll show some politician saying one thing one day, and the exact opposite the next day and describe it as 'confused' or 'mistaken' or 'misquoted' instead of just flat out saying that the creep got caught LYING, again.

As for the cheating thing, we use the box top method occasionally, mainly because we *hate* chasing dice off the table. (Haven't had a cheating issue since college.)

The calling out rolls feature sounds like a decent option as well, but make sure to actually reward her with praise when she *does* make a close roll (not just a 20), so that she gets the clue that maybe the rolls that she's *earned* are the valuable ones that get the praise, and not the ones that she's 'stolen' by cheating. There's no real need to single her out either. Praise the hell out of someone else who rolls an actual 20 or makes a difficult saving throw or attack roll or disable device roll. Encourage the others to look disappointed *and openly remark on it* when they fail an important roll. Seeing the players openly admitting to a failed roll and encouraging each other because of it, might help her to get the idea that D&D isn't a game about 'beating the other players' and 'always getting the best rolls' but about working together and covering for the rest when things *don't* work out. Everybody is supposed to win, in the end, not just the special person who never misses a roll and is better than everyone else.

You're not her parents, so it's not your job to try and teach her that theft and fraud and deceit are bad, and ultimately self-destructive, in real-life, but you can at least encourage her not to pull that crap at the game table.

 

[JeffB]

Yes it does, but a cheater is not a good player.

Agreed. I was referring to the other player the OP thought they may lose if the cheater was booted

 

[Nifft]

The point is that the cheater's idea of having fun directly and negatively impacts my fun and the fun of everyone else at that table.

Exactly. A cheater is just like any other disruptive player -- she negatively impacts the game.

We don't try to empathize with the misbehavior of disruptive players. We try to correct it.

Cheers, -- N