11 Reasons Why I Prefer D&D 4E

[Hussar]

It's not a case of letting the CR/EL rules handcuff you. It's a case of simple math.

If you through 20 CR=Par creatures at the party, the party will die. End of story.

If you go down to EL=+2 or less, the party cakewalks the encounter.

How did you do it? I'm not saying you didn't. Not at all. It's just that, regardless of how many encounters i've run or played, I've never seen it done. I just don't see how.

 

[Hussar]

It's not a case of letting the CR/EL rules handcuff you. It's a case of simple math.

If you through 20 CR=Par creatures at the party, the party will die. End of story.

If you go down to EL=+2 or less, the party cakewalks the encounter.

How did you do it? I'm not saying you didn't. Not at all. It's just that, regardless of how many encounters i've run or played, I've never seen it done. I just don't see how.

 

[Scribble]

This has been my experience as well. When 1st level combats take as long as two hours, and one of the goals of the game was faster combats, somone has really messed up somewhere. Monsters have absurdly high hitpoints and defenses, except for minions (an overly gamist concept) which I have yet to encounter.

Yeah as other have said I think this is largely due to inexperience with the system, as 2 hours seems a bit much.

Last Friday I ran 3 combat encounters in a span of about 3 hours. This included:

1. A fight/escape through a city with about 20 2nd level minions (coming in waves) and 2 real 3rd level guards.

2. Ambushed on the edge of a river with 2 3rd level mercs 1 4th level mage 5 1st level goblin minions 1 7th level cave troll.

3. Chased down the river by 4 canoes holding: 1 5th level hobgoblin warcaster 3 3rd level Hobgoblin Archers 4 3rd level Hobgoblin soldiers.

In addition to the fights there was a good amount of role playing, as they had just saved the lord of the town from being executed, met up with one of his loyal men, and then watched for trouble as the lord went to the graveyard to bid fairwell to his late wife.

I wouldn't call combats in 4e "quick" but they are faster then a similar fight in 3e would be (although not as fast as 2e) but one thing I;ve noticed is that the movement and action happening in the fights holds my interest a lot more. Combats are more fun to me, so I don't mind if they linger a bit.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'll have to check the precise numbers, but we ran through an amazing number of encounters last Saturday.

I checked the numbers: 8 encounters, one of them a skill challenge, in KotS.
We played from around half past seven in the evening to half past one in the morning, so around 6 hours for 8 encounters. Sounds like a fair time to me, and I can't say that any of the encounters felt boring or repetitive so far.

I suppose we _will_ finish Keep on the Shadowfell the next time I run. Finally. I am eagerly awaiting to get to the next adventure!

 

[Zustiur]

This has been my experience as well. When 1st level combats take as long as two hours, and one of the goals of the game was faster combats, somone has really messed up somewhere. Monsters have absurdly high hitpoints and defenses, except for minions (an overly gamist concept) which I have yet to encounter.

This is my major complaint also. In our last game (second game of 4e) our 1st level party fought about 5 kobolds. And it took us an hour and a half.
Now forgive me for being old fashioned, but my memory of kobolds is that they are 'weak' and come in hordes.
5 kobolds should not take that long to finish, and more importantly they should not have more hit points than the party's defender!
There were no minions in this combat, and it got me thinking - if you took a 3e or earlier module and moved it across to 4e, virtually all the kobolds (or goblins etc) that you encounter should be minions.

This seems to be a major rethink on how modules are created. No longer do we see a number of weaklings with one or two leaders at the end (the bbegs), now they're ALL tough. Essentially WotC have re-arranged the system here altogether. We used to fight 'monsters' and a few of those monsters would have classes to make them special. Now EVERY monster has a class and a number of levels. We're not fighting monsters any more, we're fighting characters. And I for one am not enjoying the difference.

Where are the 1st level critters that get blatted in a single hit? I know this is what minions are for, but they just seem too few and far between. The standard has been reversed - we used to get lots of critters and a few toughies. Now we get lots of toughies and a few critters.

Strangely it puts me in mind of Dawn of War (computer game). That game has 3 difficulty settings. The difference between the settings is simply how tough each creature is. The game doesn't really get any harder. It just gets more boring as you have to stand there shooting at a single monster for 3 hours.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Are the absolutes wrong? Maybe. Fine. I'll concede that. But, at the end of the day, pretty much every D&D designer backs me up on this. Module after module reflects this understanding. Whether it's Goodman Games, Paizo, WOTC or Bleeding Edge - they all follow the same paradigm. 5 or less.

I'm guessing you never did Red Hand of Doom then?

The end fight of chapter 1 has 8-10 level 4thish Hobgoblins, 2 Hell hounds (CR3) and a "CR5" green dragon.

The PC party is suppose to be at level 5 or 6 at that point.

The encounter level of that battle is 10 however.

I don't have the book on me so my data isn't perfect.

 

[Imaro]

This is my major complaint also. In our last game (second game of 4e) our 1st level party fought about 5 kobolds. And it took us an hour and a half.
Now forgive me for being old fashioned, but my memory of kobolds is that they are 'weak' and come in hordes.
5 kobolds should not take that long to finish, and more importantly they should not have more hit points than the party's defender!
There were no minions in this combat, and it got me thinking - if you took a 3e or earlier module and moved it across to 4e, virtually all the kobolds (or goblins etc) that you encounter should be minions.

This seems to be a major rethink on how modules are created. No longer do we see a number of weaklings with one or two leaders at the end (the bbegs), now they're ALL tough. Essentially WotC have re-arranged the system here altogether. We used to fight 'monsters' and a few of those monsters would have classes to make them special. Now EVERY monster has a class and a number of levels. We're not fighting monsters any more, we're fighting characters. And I for one am not enjoying the difference.

Where are the 1st level critters that get blatted in a single hit? I know this is what minions are for, but they just seem too few and far between. The standard has been reversed - we used to get lots of critters and a few toughies. Now we get lots of toughies and a few critters.

Strangely it puts me in mind of Dawn of War (computer game). That game has 3 difficulty settings. The difference between the settings is simply how tough each creature is. The game doesn't really get any harder. It just gets more boring as you have to stand there shooting at a single monster for 3 hours.

This. After my players said they didn't like 4e we sat down and talked and this post above touches on their two main issues at low level play. They felt the fights took too long...and certain things were too tough for what they were...mainly kobolds and goblins.

I mean I could only agree when one of my players said it was more comical than heroic in any way to be fighting a 3 foot tall goblin or kobold and it's doing a pretty decent job of beating the tar out of a 6'2 220lb trained warrior. I couldn't do anything but agree.

I think that 4e fights, especially against opponents you know are ultimately unimportant do drag on. I'm sorry but every fight doesn't need to be an epic battle that takes an hour. Just like every monster doesn't have to be as tough or tougher than the PC's. Now I know some will argue that's what minions are for...but that's exactly the problem, minions are the other extreme, paper tigers that don't give the players any real sense of accomplishment or challenge (unless you run tons of them, and then we're back to the long combat problem and the Wizard being all powerful in combat as it's the only controller in the core books). I'm thinking about implementing the half hit point rule and trying to get my players to play 4e again...if not then it's 3.5 and Pathfinder for me.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Use more minions, guys. Seriously. =)

It doesn't have to be 5 regular monsters, or 5 minions, or 50 minions. You can have a couple regulars and 8-10 minions. It really works. Honest.

I think part of it is the learning curve, and also people just hashing and hemming and hawing over every possible tactic. Our fights get quicker, but they can drag out seemingly endlessly when players just refuse to make decisions.

I still think it's quicker than 3e ever was.

 

[Hussar]

I'm guessing you never did Red Hand of Doom then?

The end fight of chapter 1 has 8-10 level 4thish Hobgoblins, 2 Hell hounds (CR3) and a "CR5" green dragon.

The PC party is suppose to be at level 5 or 6 at that point.

The encounter level of that battle is 10 however.

I don't have the book on me so my data isn't perfect.

Yes, because one single encounter changes my point. I'll concede the "always" part, and exchange it for, pretty much most of the time. I checked out a Dungeon magazine the other day. First adventure, no encounters with more than 5, second adventure, 5 of the 20 encounters had more than five, but, three of those had six opponents, third adventure, no encounters with more than five. Dungeon 136. Just a random issue I pulled off the shelf.

 

[MerricB]

I'm guessing you never did Red Hand of Doom then?

The end fight of chapter 1 has 8-10 level 4thish Hobgoblins, 2 Hell hounds (CR3) and a "CR5" green dragon.

The PC party is suppose to be at level 5 or 6 at that point.

The encounter level of that battle is 10 however.

I don't have the book on me so my data isn't perfect.

D&D 3e does have combats against a lot of enemies, but for the monsters to be a challenge they generally end up being "TPK" encounters. APL+4 or APL+5 are at the very limit of what a party can handle... and often can't. If they've had an encounter or two previously, these ones often end very badly for the party.

For encounters against 8+ opponents that end up at APL or APL+1, the opponents are generally too wimpy to work.

Cheers!