Cheating cheaters

[Arnwyn]

That's easy enough to say. But in reality, the tastes of different players will not match up 100%.

Who said anything about "100%"?

And what if you can't find a group that shares the majority of your tastes? Or what if there's only one group in your area? Do you accept that you just don't get to play, or do you try to play anyway, with a group that doesn't share your preferences?

A possibility one might have to live with, if one has fringe tastes.

 

[Rel]

With due respect to Fifth Element and jmucchiello, I think there is a bit of a false dichotomy being set up regarding accepting this behavior or losing a friend. Not accepting the cheating at the game table does not have to equate with losing the friend. It might result in that but, if it did, I don't think that the onus is on the non-cheater.

If I were to learn that one of my players had a habit of cheating then I'd talk with them about it and ask that it stop. If it did not stop then I would simply tell them that I wasn't willing to game with them anymore. I wouldn't stop inviting them to cookouts or birthday parties. I wouldn't ask that they be excluded from the annual Christmas drawing. I wouldn't refuse to help them move furniture. We could still be friends. I just wouldn't game with them unless and until they agreed not to engage in the cheating anymore.

Now, it's possible that by me refusing to game with them that THEY would choose not to continue the friendship. And that would be very sad. But that is on their shoulders, not mine. It is them who is choosing to not be friends over "something as silly as a game".

A big part of my philosophy regarding friends is that we are here to support each other. But that doesn't mean "right or wrong". It means we pat each other on the back for doing right and we call each other out for doing wrong. A stranger isn't going to do you the courtesy of telling you that you're acting out of selfishness, greed or malice. The times that my friends told me that I was doing something that was beneath me, those were the times that I knew I had good friends.

 

[catsclaw227]

I think there is a bit of a false dichotomy being set up regarding accepting this behavior or losing a friend. Not accepting the cheating at the game table does not have to equate with losing the friend. It might result in that but, if it did, I don't think that the onus is on the non-cheater.

<snipped for length, but assumed to be part of quote>

A big part of my philosophy regarding friends is that we are here to support each other. But that doesn't mean "right or wrong". It means we pat each other on the back for doing right and we call each other out for doing wrong. A stranger isn't going to do you the courtesy of telling you that you're acting out of selfishness, greed or malice. The times that my friends told me that I was doing something that was beneath me, those were the times that I knew I had good friends.

This.

In other threads, I agree with Fifth Element almost all of the time, but in this one I disagree. I have been having a hard time with the connection between asking a player not to cheat and losing friends. One doesn't begat the other.

I would say that, as friends (especially close friends), that we have right, and possibly a responsibility, to call out cheating when it occurs. Unchecked cheating could develop into real world problems that can have a profound effect on jobs, marriages, life.

I haven't suggested going right to exiling the player from the table, but if they continue after have an honest, kind but frank talk about it, the cheater has made a conscious decision about gaming with the rest of the group, if not the friendship in general.

 

[Fifth Element]

"Hey, X. We've noticed that you keep stating that the numbers on your dice are higher than they are. You're our friend, and if it's that important to succeed, we're willing to support you - just let us know, and you can re-roll any dice you want, or just state the number you get. However, if it's not that important, we'd prefer that you stick to saying the number that actually comes up on your dice."

That way, FifthElement is happy - if they really just want to get really high numbers, they'll take the option.

I would be happy with that. I've probably not been clear enough with my point, which is that "boot the cheater!" is rarely the best reaction to the situation. Talking to everyone involved to see if something can be worked out is far superior.

 

[Fifth Element]

In other threads, I agree with Fifth Element almost all of the time, but in this one I disagree. I have been having a hard time with the connection between asking a player not to cheat and losing friends. One doesn't begat the other.

I would say that, as friends (especially close friends), that we have right, and possibly a responsibility, to call out cheating when it occurs. Unchecked cheating could develop into real world problems that can have a profound effect on jobs, marriages, life.

I believe that the 'losing friends' argument was jmucchiello's. Though I don't subscribe to the idea that if someone cheats at something as trivial as a game, what else will they cheat at? In my view, someone is more likely to cheat at something that doesn't really matter, such as a game, than something more important.

My point here actually applies best when you are gaming with friends: since you're friends, you can openly discuss what's going on, rather than just "boot the cheater!" or "trick her into not cheating!"

 

[Oryan77]

Cheating is a playstyle now?

As much as some people are defending cheaters, why do I not believe them? If you guys are looking for a new player and you meet a guy that seems like a good player, but he tells you, "BTW, I cheat when I roll my dice....I cheat a LOT and I will probably cheat every time you ask me to roll a save.", you will allow him into your game?

I don't believe this "cheating is ok" opinion a bit. It seems more like someone trying to get attention on the internet by being radical. I don't even think a cheater would enjoy DMing someone who is cheating in their campaign

 

[Fifth Element]

Cheating is a playstyle now?

As much as some people are defending cheaters, why do I not believe them? If you guys are looking for a new player and you meet a guy that seems like a good player, but he tells you, "BTW, I cheat when I roll my dice....I cheat a LOT and I will probably cheat every time you ask me to roll a save.", you will allow him into your game?

Please read the two posts immediately before yours for a succinct summary of my position. It appears you're a way back in the thread and haven't caught up with the discussion.

 

[Janx]

With due respect to Fifth Element and jmucchiello, I think there is a bit of a false dichotomy being set up regarding accepting this behavior or losing a friend. Not accepting the cheating at the game table does not have to equate with losing the friend. It might result in that but, if it did, I don't think that the onus is on the non-cheater.

If I were to learn that one of my players had a habit of cheating then I'd talk with them about it and ask that it stop. If it did not stop then I would simply tell them that I wasn't willing to game with them anymore. I wouldn't stop inviting them to cookouts or birthday parties. I wouldn't ask that they be excluded from the annual Christmas drawing. I wouldn't refuse to help them move furniture. We could still be friends. I just wouldn't game with them unless and until they agreed not to engage in the cheating anymore.

Now, it's possible that by me refusing to game with them that THEY would choose not to continue the friendship. And that would be very sad. But that is on their shoulders, not mine. It is them who is choosing to not be friends over "something as silly as a game".

A big part of my philosophy regarding friends is that we are here to support each other. But that doesn't mean "right or wrong". It means we pat each other on the back for doing right and we call each other out for doing wrong. A stranger isn't going to do you the courtesy of telling you that you're acting out of selfishness, greed or malice. The times that my friends told me that I was doing something that was beneath me, those were the times that I knew I had good friends.

This pretty much says what I've been trying to say. Well said!

I have a responsibility to handle the situation tactfully.
I have a right to not accept bad behavior.

It's really that simple.

 

[Nifft]

Please read the two posts immediately before yours for a succinct summary of my position. It appears you're a way back in the thread and haven't caught up with the discussion.

Skipping to the bottom of the thread might just be his posting style.

How dare you trouble his inner child for trying to express itself.

, -- N

 

[Fifth Element]

Skipping to the bottom of the thread might just be his posting style.

How dare you trouble his inner child for trying to express itself.

Hey, I could have said "Boot him from the thread!" or "I don't tolerate people who don't read every post!"

But that's not my style.