Cheating cheaters

[Fifth Element]

I have a responsibility to handle the situation tactfully.
I have a right to not accept bad behavior.

It's really that simple.

The first point is what I've been trying to say. "Boot her from the table" is not tactful.

The second part seems simple enough. Just don't get hung up on something being "bad" if it really doesn't matter.

I consider smoking to be "bad behaviour". One of my players smokes. I don't chastise him for it. The smell of smoke (smokers always smell of smoke) bothers a couple of the other players a bit, but it's not really a big deal. So it's not an issue for us.

 

[Voadam]

I'll see how this works - but I'm looking for input from other DMs and players. How have you handled cheaters in the past, if they were otherwise decent players and okay human beings?

-O

I used to have a friend in our game who was a habitual liar. He would lie to make himself seem better. He would make stuff up on the spot to try to pass off that he was an expert about something he knew nothing about. He would exaggerate things he had done when retelling them to make himself sound cooler.

In games he would lie about die rolls. His character sheet would change between sessions with higher attributes, hp, xp, and better equipment. He would buy the module the DM was running to find out where treasure was hidden and to know what monsters he would face and what NPCs he could push around with impunity.

We didn't want to boot him from the group or get into arguments all the time but it did bug us and it bugged me.

I disliked the changing of his characters. I disliked feeling that everybody else risked bad things happening to their characters but feeling that he would likely cheat his way out of them if he could (particularly when I was a player facing having bad things happening to my character). I disliked being lied to.

In reaction to this I changed the way I ran games to reduce the opportunities for cheating and lieing.

I requested die rolls from everybody in front of me so I could see them.

I would occasionally ask for a die roll by die size but not say what it was for (earlier D&D editions had some checks with high rolls for success and some requiring low rolls for success).

I would keep PC character sheets between sessions.

I would change things from the default in the modules.

I was quite happy with point buy options for character generation and when we switched to a flat amount of hp increase per level instead of rolling.

Minimizing the opportunities for cheating reduced the cheating and lieing.

I was happier for it.

 

[Storm Raven]

My point here actually applies best when you are gaming with friends: since you're friends, you can openly discuss what's going on, rather than just "boot the cheater!" or "trick her into not cheating!"

Someone who is willing to cheat over something as trivial as a game is not someone who I would want to be friends with. And if I have to come with ways to be a hall monitor and watch over them to keep them from cheating, I don't see why I would want to spend my leisure time with them either.

Boot them. Forthwith. There isn't enough gaming time available to spend it teaching people lessons they should have learned in grade school.

 

[Kishin]

Please note, the pop psychology came from jmucchiello, and although I agree with him in principle I don't necessarily support how he makes the argument.


Which is fine and good, but overcoming the deception by more deception (pretend to cheer her on, but really just check what she rolls) is pretty crappy.

But again, just because you wouldn't play in a certain way, doesn't necessarily mean that someone else playing that way actually hinders your fun. So again, why does this bother the other players? Maybe they can accept it and move on, so that everyone can have fun, rather than telling one player she's just wrong, period.

If there's no chance of failure, what's the point? Might as just let everyone pick their dice roll and have no repercussions whatsoever for just naming '20' every time.

Obviously the randomness is an important element to the game as a whole, and to the OP's party. That's why it bothers them. They have every right to correct it, even if hashes the one player's mellow. They shouldn't have to accept her violating a precept of the game, one they mutually ascribe importance to.

This 'give the baby its bottle' treatment is a little disgusting to me, in all honesty.

 

[El Mahdi]

Someone who is willing to cheat over something as trivial as a game is not someone who I would want to be friends with. And if I have to come with ways to be a hall monitor and watch over them to keep them from cheating, I don't see why I would want to spend my leisure time with them either.

Boot them. Forthwith. There isn't enough gaming time available to spend it teaching people lessons they should have learned in grade school.

I gave my opinion earlier in the thread with my preference of the group oversight/cheering option. However, I have to say, I'm normally not a judgemental person, but if this was my group, and they weren't a friend, and they wouldn't stop, it would be absolutely "Asta la Vista", without a doubt. If it were a friend, I'd probably want to know why they were doing this, in case there was something bigger going on. And, if they were a close friend, I wouldn't be afraid of losing a friendship over speaking up about it (if the friendship ended because of this, I don't think they were that good a friend in the first place). If I already knew that there was something bigger going on, and there was nothing to be done about it, the only option I see is live with it, and maybe use the group oversight/cheering option. But besides all of this, I know I would want to say "what the hell are you doing", and toss them out on their . Hopefully, I've matured beyond this, but I'd be tempted.

 

[Oryan77]

Skipping to the bottom of the thread might just be his posting style.

How dare you trouble his inner child for trying to express itself.

Actually, I like to read every post in a thread. But after visiting Enworld for several years and realizing how long winded we all are and how we repeat ourselves post after post, my new posting/reading style has been to read the first couple of pages, skip the middle pages, and finish off with the last page

So I did read his last 2 posts before I posted

His first 20 or so posts were about how he doesn't have a problem with cheaters and the OP should just deal with the cheating cause it's not that big a deal. Then his last 2 posts were about how he was really only talking about friends that cheat & how you should talk to them. By the end of the thread, I was still convinced that they are only claiming to be pro-cheating for the forum shock value. I didn't think that they really tolerated cheating players as if it was just a gaming style.

I'm sure, even if their "friend" who wants to join their group, had a "conversation" about how he will be constantly cheating if he's allowed into their group, these guys aren't going to just say, "Oh yer gonna cheat if you join our game? We're good friends so it sounds fine to me!"

 

[Delta]

The first point is what I've been trying to say. "Boot her from the table" is not tactful...

I consider smoking to be "bad behaviour". One of my players smokes. I don't chastise him for it. The smell of smoke (smokers always smell of smoke) bothers a couple of the other players a bit, but it's not really a big deal. So it's not an issue for us.

Totally disgree with the first point. Tactful booting: "It looks like you're not having fun, and I don't think this group is a good fit for you. I think it would be best if you not come anymore, but I hope you can find another group to play with. Maybe we could catch a movie sometime?" Un-tactful booting: "You stupid @#%#$%^ #$^%#$%. You're ugly and you're #$%#$ #@$%#$%."

It's exactly like your smoking issue. Tactful: "Oh, I'm afraid I don't allow smoking in this house. You'll have to step outside for that." Un-tactful: "You filthy smoker! You @#%#@$% stink! How 'bout I give you $%#$ cancer!"

Over the past few years, I've had to fire a number of people from my punk band (for, say, skipping rehearsal half the time). So I get a whole lot of practice at this. And I've learned it's always the sooner, the more open/honest/direct, the better, and the easier. I'm still friends and do stuff with all the people I've tactfully fired like this.

 

[SkidAce]

Will there be an update on the situation?

Just curious as to how well the "chosen" action workds/doen't work.

Not that it would be indicative of all situations, with so many variables in gaming groups.

Still....curious.

 

[Obryn]

Will there be an update on the situation?

Just curious as to how well the "chosen" action workds/doen't work.

Not that it would be indicative of all situations, with so many variables in gaming groups.

Still....curious.

Gaming's tomorrow, and I'll let you folks know.

-O

 

[Janx]

Totally disgree with the first point. Tactful booting: "It looks like you're not having fun, and I don't think this group is a good fit for you. I think it would be best if you not come anymore, but I hope you can find another group to play with. Maybe we could catch a movie sometime?" Un-tactful booting: "You stupid @#%#$%^ #$^%#$%. You're ugly and you're #$%#$ #@$%#$%."

It's exactly like your smoking issue. Tactful: "Oh, I'm afraid I don't allow smoking in this house. You'll have to step outside for that." Un-tactful: "You filthy smoker! You @#%#@$% stink! How 'bout I give you $%#$ cancer!"

Over the past few years, I've had to fire a number of people from my punk band (for, say, skipping rehearsal half the time). So I get a whole lot of practice at this. And I've learned it's always the sooner, the more open/honest/direct, the better, and the easier. I'm still friends and do stuff with all the people I've tactfully fired like this.

though this thread finally died...Delta makes an excellent observation. Gaming is NOT the only activity that suffers from "problem people." I'm active on a musician forum, and like Delta says bands are FULL of flaky people, for often the exact same behaviors.

Dealing with these people is a skill. Try to correc the problem. Try to deflect the person from the problem area (Voadam seems to be doing this). Lastly, eject the problem person. They just aren't going to work.