RIP Take 20... Hello, Take 18!

[deleteme123456]

So a careful read of the PHB finds Take 20 ... nowhere. A more careful read sees the justification... almost every use of almost every skill has a failure effect (perception being a notable exception).

OK, as a DM I appreciate that. Makes life easier, lots easier. As a DM to powergamers, I was presented with something I can't really argue with outside combat (they have admitted it's ineffective in combat)... the Take 18.

Find 4 characters besides yourself (not hard given typicaly party of 5). These characters must not have a negative check modifier for the skill in question (not hard for mental and social skills, physical skills don't lend themselves to this much either). Each of these charcters takes 10 on a check to aid another targetting you. You then proceed to take 10 on your check. You're at 18 + modifiers, or about 25-29 for a trained Level 1 character, depending on the attribute synergy and racial bonuses.

Now so far they haven't come up with anything too dangerous they can do with this, but it does mean they can identify any magical effect they're likely to encounter (it would have to be what, level 12+ at minimum?). That's not a huge deal, but annoying.

Social checks could get ugly... one really powerful intimidate or bluff could have far-reaching consequences.

Are there any other possible situations where this would get bad, and short of DM Fiat / Rule 0, any suggestions? I've toyed with not allowing take 10 / no retry on a check to aid another, but wasn't sure if that was really the fix I was looking for. Higher DCs are a possibility (I'm already using the errata'ed table but with the footnote, so hard level 1 is DC 20). No take 10 if you've been aided... doesn't change too much, but if you can retry, that's pointless.

 

[KarinsDad]

The problem is with the Aid Another feature. No matter how difficult the goal is, Aid Another is +2 if the PC can achieve a mere DC 10 result.

Aid Another should be +2 if an ally can reach task DC -5.

For example, on a DC 30 difficult task, the PC with the highest modifier should make the actual roll and s/he should get the +2 from allies if they get a result of 25 or higher.

Take 20 was a poor 3E rule (at least one PC succeeds for simplicity sake unless the DM wants everyone to fail) and so was Aid Another (nearly everyone who tries to help does help nearly every time after a few levels). The mechanics were bogus in 3E and the changed mechanics are bogus in 4E.

 

[mattdm]

I don't think I'd allow taking 10 in most situations I can think of where this could be abused — if getting a super-high check is important, it's probably not a "mundane task". So that certainly helps some.

I also would feel free to rule on the fly as appropriate that given situations can only take so much aid, either in that more people just physically can't help or that adding more cooks isn't improving the soup. I don't think the rules ever say that explicitly, but it seems in the spirit of 4E overall.

The suggestion of -5 DC is an interesting one, but I think it runs counter to one of the uses of the aid another action: it lets a player whose character doesn't have any great options at least do something which helps the party. So I think switching to that rule for the sake of preventing abuse is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Caliban]

So a careful read of the PHB finds Take 20 ... nowhere. A more careful read sees the justification... almost every use of almost every skill has a failure effect (perception being a notable exception).

OK, as a DM I appreciate that. Makes life easier, lots easier. As a DM to powergamers, I was presented with something I can't really argue with outside combat (they have admitted it's ineffective in combat)... the Take 18.

Find 4 characters besides yourself (not hard given typicaly party of 5). These characters must not have a negative check modifier for the skill in question (not hard for mental and social skills, physical skills don't lend themselves to this much either). Each of these charcters takes 10 on a check to aid another targetting you. You then proceed to take 10 on your check. You're at 18 + modifiers, or about 25-29 for a trained Level 1 character, depending on the attribute synergy and racial bonuses.

Now so far they haven't come up with anything too dangerous they can do with this, but it does mean they can identify any magical effect they're likely to encounter (it would have to be what, level 12+ at minimum?). That's not a huge deal, but annoying.

Social checks could get ugly... one really powerful intimidate or bluff could have far-reaching consequences.

Are there any other possible situations where this would get bad, and short of DM Fiat / Rule 0, any suggestions? I've toyed with not allowing take 10 / no retry on a check to aid another, but wasn't sure if that was really the fix I was looking for. Higher DCs are a possibility (I'm already using the errata'ed table but with the footnote, so hard level 1 is DC 20). No take 10 if you've been aided... doesn't change too much, but if you can retry, that's pointless.

If it's a skill challenge situation, this errata that was added to the DMG might be helpful.

Group Skill Checks [Addition]
Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 75
Add the following paragraph after the existing paragraph:
​

"On checks that aren’t described as group checks, consider limiting the number of characters who can assist another character’s skill check to one or two. The goal of a skill challenge isn’t for the entire party to line up behind one expert but for the entire group to contribute in different and meaningful ways."​

​

 

[burntgerbil]

Our group has adopted something very similar to the above errata. We have found it work very well so far.

 

[Enaloindir]

The suggestion of -5 DC is an interesting one, but I think it runs counter to one of the uses of the aid another action: it lets a player whose character doesn't have any great options at least do something which helps the party. So I think switching to that rule for the sake of preventing abuse is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Actually, a character with an ability score of 12 at 1st level (improved to 13 at 11th and 14 at 21st) needs a natural roll of 8 to succeed on a moderate skill DC for an untrained skill at levels 1-3. This increases to 9 at level 4-9, 10 at levels 10-15, 11 at levels 16-27 and 12 at levels 28-30. As you can see, an unskilled character has an approximately 50% to succeed on a moderate DC skill check for an untrained skill.

If you use the "DC-5" rule for difficult DC checks, you end up exactly on the moderate DC. The easy DC, on the other hand, is slightly lower than "moderate -5" at the higher levels (7+). So, using "DC-5" results in unskilled characters having an approximately 50% of contributing on had tasks, 75% on moderate tasks and 100% on easy tasks. This seems very reasonable.

Also, small things can really help a skilled character. Just imagine a rogue trying to disable a difficult trap: "Wizard, hold this tool for me at this spot...right there! Don't move it! Fighter, could you stand there and pull that panel a bit towards you? Thanks guys! Now I can reach the mechanism more easily...hang on..."

- Enaloindir

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Take 20 was a poor 3E rule (at least one PC succeeds for simplicity sake unless the DM wants everyone to fail)

I disagree. It could be used in any situation where you allowed trying the skill again anyway. Take 20 just removed the need to actually roll the dice.
Of course, if you don't like retries, take 20 will not be to your liking either. But that doesn't make the mechanic of take 20 bad, just the idea of retrying a failed skill check.

and so was Aid Another (nearly everyone who tries to help does help nearly every time after a few levels). The mechanics were bogus in 3E and the changed mechanics are bogus in 4E.

Aid Another more so. I think it worked a little better in 3E because very often, the aid another check was made without any skill bonus. YOu had one character trained in the skill and the untrained rest rolling the check.
In 4E, even untrained characters get an improved skill value, so a DC of 10 just doesn't work that well. I'd suggest something like a moderate or easy skill DC of the parties level range. Which would essentially make the "+2" bonus options in skill challenges just a differently (better?) flavored aid another.

 

[Starfox]

Actually, take 20 is there, only hidden. The adventuring chapter mentions how you can assume the PCs roll a 20 on Search during any short rest, looking through the area careful enough not to miss anything. Since you do a short rest after basically every fight, the spirit here is that once the fight won, all the spoils should be found.

Its no longer a rule, but the idea is there.

 

[ValhallaGH]

A simple house rule, if this ever becomes a real problem, is the old 3E rules on Aid Another. Namely, you can't Take 10 when making your Aid Another check; you have to roll a die and get a 10 or better on your check result.

 

[Syrsuro]

You may want to consider replacing the roll for Aid Another with the pre-errata Easy skill DC from page 42. This makes it a roll of a 10 at low level, but it scales up from there.

When the party is 20th level and has a +10 for level alone, it seems like making them roll a 10 to assist is pretty pointless. If you want the roll to represent any effort at all, it needs to be a sliding scale.

Carl