How does this work with Battle Insights, since it means you don't know what kind of action it will use up if you try it? Can you attempt a Battle Insights if you have only your move action remaining in your turn, in hopes of getting the DC 30 result? What happens if you roll between 10 and 30 in this case? If you have both your standard and your move action left, can you use the move action for Battle Insights the same way (declaring that "I only want this to go off if it turns out that it's a move action; I don't want to spend a standard action)?
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Skill Stunts
- Thread starter Stalker0
- Start date
How does this work with Battle Insights, since it means you don't know what kind of action it will use up if you try it? Can you attempt a Battle Insights if you have only your move action remaining in your turn, in hopes of getting the DC 30 result? What happens if you roll between 10 and 30 in this case? If you have both your standard and your move action left, can you use the move action for Battle Insights the same way (declaring that "I only want this to go off if it turns out that it's a move action; I don't want to spend a standard action)?
I would do it this way. You declare, "I'm using battle insight". If you get the regular DC, you have to spend a standard action, else you can spend the move action if you get the full DC. If you only have a move left and don't get the big DC, you can't use the action.
I'll admit I didn't think of this issue when I first wrote teh stunts, but hey that's why we post house rules to the boards!
I had some other comments that I forgot to post before.
Overall, it's quite an interesting system. However, I can see several issues with it:
1. There are many stunts that are immediate interrupts or are done as part of another action (like Knock Em Down, Leaping Charge, or Timed Attack), so there is no reason not to use them when you get the chance. This essentially turns it into "if you have this skill, you have a chance of getting an attack bonus in such-and-such a situation" and could remove a lot of the "flavor" you are going for.
2. You can use these a LOT in an encounter. For example, it's quite reasonable for a character in the middle of the paragon tier to have almost a +20 (or more) to a skill (+7 level, +6 stat, +5 trained, and possibly racial and item bonuses). This would mean that the character would have a good chance on most of these even with a -10, so he could use them three times per encounter. And this is separate for every skill, so if he had five trained skills then he could use fifteen stunts per encounter! And that's not all because he has a big enough bonus from level alone to have a good chance of pulling of stunts from skills he isn't even trained in.
3. Relating to the above, the system requires keeping track of a separate count for every skill, which could easily get cumbersome.
4. Many of the effects are relatively low, such as a +1 or +2 to one die roll. Making one roll just to get a small bonus to another roll adds complexity for relatively little effects.
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What I would recommend is to have one encounter power that all characters get called "Use Encounter Skill Stunt", and one daily power that is called "Use Daily Skill Stunt." Both of these would operate like Channel Divinity in that there are many different effects the power can have but you choose one of them each time you use it, and you can only use it once per encounter (or day). Optionally, you could provide more uses at higher tiers. Then you can make the stunts more powerful to compensate for the reduced rate at which you can use them. When designing these stunts, it might be a good idea to come up with a standard for comparison to figure out the DCs - let's say, a stunt as powerful as an Nth level utility power has a DC of 20+N.
It's probably also a good idea to make all skill stunts Trained Only.
Overall, it's quite an interesting system. However, I can see several issues with it:
1. There are many stunts that are immediate interrupts or are done as part of another action (like Knock Em Down, Leaping Charge, or Timed Attack), so there is no reason not to use them when you get the chance. This essentially turns it into "if you have this skill, you have a chance of getting an attack bonus in such-and-such a situation" and could remove a lot of the "flavor" you are going for.
2. You can use these a LOT in an encounter. For example, it's quite reasonable for a character in the middle of the paragon tier to have almost a +20 (or more) to a skill (+7 level, +6 stat, +5 trained, and possibly racial and item bonuses). This would mean that the character would have a good chance on most of these even with a -10, so he could use them three times per encounter. And this is separate for every skill, so if he had five trained skills then he could use fifteen stunts per encounter! And that's not all because he has a big enough bonus from level alone to have a good chance of pulling of stunts from skills he isn't even trained in.
3. Relating to the above, the system requires keeping track of a separate count for every skill, which could easily get cumbersome.
4. Many of the effects are relatively low, such as a +1 or +2 to one die roll. Making one roll just to get a small bonus to another roll adds complexity for relatively little effects.
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What I would recommend is to have one encounter power that all characters get called "Use Encounter Skill Stunt", and one daily power that is called "Use Daily Skill Stunt." Both of these would operate like Channel Divinity in that there are many different effects the power can have but you choose one of them each time you use it, and you can only use it once per encounter (or day). Optionally, you could provide more uses at higher tiers. Then you can make the stunts more powerful to compensate for the reduced rate at which you can use them. When designing these stunts, it might be a good idea to come up with a standard for comparison to figure out the DCs - let's say, a stunt as powerful as an Nth level utility power has a DC of 20+N.
It's probably also a good idea to make all skill stunts Trained Only.
FungiMuncher
First Post
These ideas are awesome, Stalker0!
I also like some of Alex319's ideas, specifically:
Some folks have complained about the relative lack of importance of the Int ability - perhaps base the number of uses per day on the character's INT mod.
I'll have to let the ideas simmer a bit before I give some more constructive input.
FM
I also like some of Alex319's ideas, specifically:
Some folks have complained about the relative lack of importance of the Int ability - perhaps base the number of uses per day on the character's INT mod.
I'll have to let the ideas simmer a bit before I give some more constructive input.
FM
jbear
First Post
yeah, nice as always stalker. Copy pasted. I think the criticism of the idea is quite constructive too. Going to let it all simmer and see how I can refine something down for my group.
I agree about the energy change through the arcana skill. Maybe it could be used to lower the creatures resistence to that energy type instead of changing the energy type (the resistence is the reason why a wizard would want to change energy type I imagine). Something like this: Arcana: Magic Sense: (Move Action; vs Enemies Fort Defense) Honing your magic sense to the flows and ebbs of the magical defense that surrounds your enemy, you fire your next spell at your enemy at the precise moment it reaches its weak point. Lower one type of your enemies resistence by 5. If you beat Fort by 10 or more you can lower 2 types of resistence.
Don`t think you should be able to do this against Martial Monsters.
Maybe arcana could be used as a daily power to recharge a magic item...
Another thought that occured to me as I read the list, the Streetwise skill was brilliant, and its a skill I would like to have more uses for. An Ignore Terrain in an Urban Setting would be a cool one too, someone used to bar brawls, sliding over bars and tables, or leaping over trash and homeless hovels in back alleys, like the Nature skill you invented.
I think I will limit the uses to encounter stunt and daily stunt as per alex's suggestion and do away with worring about keeping track of the cumulative usage penalty (which if you use it maybe could increase to -10 at paragon tier and -15 at heroic to limit the amount stunts are used at high levels... just a thought). And the idea intelligence influencing the amount of uses you get per encounter also tickles my fancy, though I think one daily will be the limit for me. I guess the flip side to that is the most intelligent characters i.e Wizard and Warlock arent really going to be spamming 'leaping charge' 6 times per combat so thats ok.
I'm going to take a careful look at which stunts Im going to make daily and which ones can be encounters; if I allow Intelligence as a usage modifier, I think I will limit each stunt to once per encounter regardless.
Anyway, my brains alive with ideas which means that the ideas you've had are great! Thanks!
I agree about the energy change through the arcana skill. Maybe it could be used to lower the creatures resistence to that energy type instead of changing the energy type (the resistence is the reason why a wizard would want to change energy type I imagine). Something like this: Arcana: Magic Sense: (Move Action; vs Enemies Fort Defense) Honing your magic sense to the flows and ebbs of the magical defense that surrounds your enemy, you fire your next spell at your enemy at the precise moment it reaches its weak point. Lower one type of your enemies resistence by 5. If you beat Fort by 10 or more you can lower 2 types of resistence.
Don`t think you should be able to do this against Martial Monsters.
Maybe arcana could be used as a daily power to recharge a magic item...
Another thought that occured to me as I read the list, the Streetwise skill was brilliant, and its a skill I would like to have more uses for. An Ignore Terrain in an Urban Setting would be a cool one too, someone used to bar brawls, sliding over bars and tables, or leaping over trash and homeless hovels in back alleys, like the Nature skill you invented.
I think I will limit the uses to encounter stunt and daily stunt as per alex's suggestion and do away with worring about keeping track of the cumulative usage penalty (which if you use it maybe could increase to -10 at paragon tier and -15 at heroic to limit the amount stunts are used at high levels... just a thought). And the idea intelligence influencing the amount of uses you get per encounter also tickles my fancy, though I think one daily will be the limit for me. I guess the flip side to that is the most intelligent characters i.e Wizard and Warlock arent really going to be spamming 'leaping charge' 6 times per combat so thats ok.
I'm going to take a careful look at which stunts Im going to make daily and which ones can be encounters; if I allow Intelligence as a usage modifier, I think I will limit each stunt to once per encounter regardless.
Anyway, my brains alive with ideas which means that the ideas you've had are great! Thanks!
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