Flavour First vs Game First - a comparison

[Fenes]

Indeed, a good way to die is to be a defender who has used his second wind already, out in the middle of nowhere amongst many bad guys, and no leader around to help.

The leader in question reached him before he died though.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The leader in question reached him before he died though.

One utter failing of most systems (not limited to specific D&D editions): No rule support for the "words of a dying man". Either you're unconscious and dying, or you're conscious and not dying.

 

[Fenes]

One utter failing of most systems (not limited to specific D&D editions): No rule support for the "words of a dying man". Either you're unconscious and dying, or you're conscious and not dying.

The bard "Knight" kit (don't recall exact name) from the 2E Complete Bard's Handbook had that support. If fighting for something your code supported, you fought even when reduced to negatives, then died after uttering final words.

 

[apoptosis]

One utter failing of most systems (not limited to specific D&D editions): No rule support for the "words of a dying man". Either you're unconscious and dying, or you're conscious and not dying.

Rolemaster is good this way. You are conscious dying (and maybe sans limbs).

TSOY could do this as the stake setting could result in dying but conscious.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The bard "Knight" kit (don't recall exact name) from the 2E Complete Bard's Handbook had that support. If fighting for something your code supported, you fought even when reduced to negatives, then died after uttering final words.

I hope it wasn't a class ability used too often?

 

[LostSoul]

Boromir died at the end of that scene. He didn't just surge heal back to full in 5 minutes after Aragon got to him. In game mechanics, he ran out of hitpoints. In 4E mechanics, if he had had a healing surge left, he'd have survived. And suddenly, the arrows would not have been actual hits.

Only if your group is okay with that sort of thing.

If not: Boromir looks back at the hobbits and finds the courage to fight on. The player decides that he's thrown away the temptation of the Ring and has changed, grown as a character.

Maybe that's not as good a story, but it's influenced by the mechanics.

(You can ask how he deals with those arrows that are still in him if you want.)

 

[Fenes]

(You can ask how he deals with those arrows that are still in him if you want.)

How he deals with the arrows has been the point of this thread's last 6 pages or so.

 

[Mallus]

A fighter in 3E at 5 hitpoints is weakened.

Not to sound snarky, but that depends on what your definition of weakened is.

I should start by saying healing surges don't bother me because the real "disconnect" is caused by the ablative hit point system itself --not by the way the 4e healing surge mechanic modifies it. When you get right down to it, injuries in D&D --whether they're scratches, solid hits from giant-sized mauls, thrown boulders to the face, full-body burns-- simply aren't injurious. They aren't debilitating.

So a 3e fighter with 5 out 100 HP is "weakened" only in the sense that he's close to being disabled. He suffers from none of the other realistic effects of grievous injury; he can run sprints in plate armor, he isn't bleeding, he suffers no broken bones, isn't covered with leaking burns. His ability to perform strenuous physical activity is completely unimpaired.

So if the DM has been describing those lost 95 HP as serious wounds, you've still got a big disconnect. And if the DM hasn't, then the 'wounds' are nothing more than fatigue, lost morale, and grazes, which can easily be fixed by a rousing pep talk and a short rest.

Healing surges are as unrealistic as hit points are themselves.

 

[apoptosis]

Not to sound snarky, but that depends on what your definition of weakened is.

I should start by saying healing surges don't bother me because the real "disconnect" is caused by the ablative hit point system itself --not by the way the 4e healing surge mechanic modifies it. When you get right down to it, injuries in D&D --whether they're scratches, solid hits from giant-sized mauls, thrown boulders to the face, full-body burns-- simply aren't injurious. They aren't debilitating.

So a 3e fighter with 5 out 100 HP is "weakened" only in the sense that he's close to being disabled. He suffers from none of the other realistic effects of grievous injury; he can run sprints in plate armor, he isn't bleeding, he suffers no broken bones, isn't covered with leaking burns. His ability to perform strenuous physical activity is completely unimpaired.

So if the DM has been describing those lost 95 HP as serious wounds, you've still got a big disconnect. And if the DM hasn't, then the 'wounds' are nothing more than fatigue, lost morale, and grazes, which can easily be fixed by a rousing pep talk and a short rest.

Healing surges are as unrealistic as hit points are themselves.

While you make good points RC issue is not just the necessary unrealistic issues involved but of retconning the narrative. He wants HP to be a real-time tracker of condition, with healing surges they are not.

I think he has a very valid point in this and that simulationist are not going to like this type of mechanic (simialr to not liking the heal everythign overnight phenomena).

Retconning the narrative does not necessarily bother me i and i think it can be a useful way to actually model some phenomena. i personally like the second wind idea (though not necessarily its mechanical implementation).

 

[Fenes]

Healing surges are as unrealistic as hit points are themselves.

For you, not for me. Hit points strain my immersion less than healing surges do.