Flavour First vs Game First - a comparison

[LostSoul]

How he deals with the arrows has been the point of this thread's last 6 pages or so.

He slumps to the ground and binds his wounds as best he can, or Aragorn heals him using his fancy magic, or he has some elf bread.

 

[Mallus]

While you make good points RC issue is not just the necessary unrealistic issues involved but of retconning the narrative.

Part of my point was simply that describing HP loss a serious wounding can be seen as a bad idea --since the rest of the system makes it clear you aren't modeling serious injury. If you avoid doing that then no 'retconning' is necessary. Think of HP as morale.

He wants HP to be a real-time tracker of condition, with healing surges they are not.

But they are a real-time condition tracker. It's just that the quantity they track can increase as well as decrease. The only difference is that HP are no longer as strictly ablative. This is no different from a tiring runner getting a spurt of energy/speed at different points during a race. This happens even though, on the whole, the runner's energy level is decreasing.

I think he has a very valid point in this and that simulationist are not going to like this type of mechanic

OK. I but I think I have a valid point that simulationists shouldn't be overly fond of abstract, ablative hit point mechanics in the first place.

(simialr to not liking the heal everything overnight phenomena

This is a slightly different kettle of fish. To be honest I'm not sure how I feel about it... I'm waiting to see how it 'feels' during campaign play.

 

[Mallus]

For you, not for me. Hit points strain my immersion less than healing surges do.

It's more accurate to say that while both mechanics are unrealistic, one bothers you and the other doesn't.

 

[Raven Crowking]

While you make good points RC issue is not just the necessary unrealistic issues involved but of retconning the narrative. He wants HP to be a real-time tracker of condition, with healing surges they are not.

I think he has a very valid point in this and that simulationist are not going to like this type of mechanic (simialr to not liking the heal everythign overnight phenomena).

Retconning the narrative does not necessarily bother me i and i think it can be a useful way to actually model some phenomena. i personally like the second wind idea (though not necessarily its mechanical implementation).

You seem to understand what I am saying exactly.

And, once more, for the record, if retconning the narrative doesn't bother you, then this isn't going to be a problem for you. 4e offers more than one problem for someone who prefers simulation. Some of these can be fixed by rephrasing powers (so that you do not do damage on a miss), and some are more intrinsic to the system (healing surges, minion rules, aggro). This doesn't mean that 4e is a bad game; it means that 4e isn't the right game for some folks. Me included.

If the revised GSL resembles the OGL, I could see that a version of 4e could be put together that would solve the problems I have with it. However, I am not holding my breath on that score.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

It's more accurate to say that while both mechanics are unrealistic, one bother you and the other doesn't.

I would say that it is more accurate to say that, while both mechanics are unrealistic, one is far more unrealistic than the other, and as a result it bothers me where the other does not.

Again, just because a 20 foot drop can kill you, it doesn't follow that a 20 foot drop and a 200 foot drop are co-equal.


RC

 

[Fenes]

It's more accurate to say that while both mechanics are unrealistic, one bothers you and the other doesn't.

Please do not try to speak for me, or try to tell me what I feel. My sense of immersion - which is highly subjective - is less bothered by hitpoints than by healing surges. That is a fact, no matter what you think I think or should think.

 

[GlaziusF]

If someone cannot determine that the mechanics of having 5 hp instead of 80 hp is going to directly affect how a character is played, and how effective that character is in a fight, what hope do any words of mine have?

Maybe anyone can't, but, uh.

A character with 5 hp out of 80 is exhausted. Not status-effect exhausted, exhausted if you want to pose his mood. He has been warding off or absorbing blows for some time and doesn't know if he's up for another burst of that effort. He has taken one bloody wound, maybe a medium-deep graze on his arm or maybe his chainmail got shoved into his chest and he'd rather leave it there for the time being. If something actually connects solidly he's going to crumple, unless it couldn't back off a puppy to begin with or fate is feeling very kind.

But he is not "slowed", he is not "weakened", he is not "dazed". (At least not inherently. He may have been tagged with one of these effects until the end of the encounter.) He can still move around the battlefield and deliver full-force swings, maybe pausing briefly to muster up the effort but either adrenaline or will or both is keeping him going. Just as long as he doesn't have to stop.

If he can catch his breath for a moment (has his second wind available and a healing surge to burn) he'll feel a little less put through the wringer, maybe able to stave off a couple more shots, but not up to worrying about the wound (the healing surge won't get him above bloodied). If he's been holding back any desperation moves (only usable when bloodied) then now is the time. And everyone can see or sense that he's wounded, so anything that affects bloodied characters differently affects him.

If he receives another healing effect that takes him up above bloodied then he tends to his wound - bandages his graze or closes it through sheer force of flex, or finally essays to pull the chainmail out and winces for a moment, but it's not biting into his skin anymore. This also happens if he has time to take a short rest and has healing surges to spend.

If he's still at 5/80 after his short rest, then he just doesn't have anything left in reserve today. He doesn't get any worse while he rests, but he doesn't get any better either.

I suppose you could house-rule that anybody who was bloodied could clear that condition during a short rest but it would return as soon as they took damage.

Also, Boromir was probably using a feat, (likely paragon-tier, maybe even epic) utility, or path ability that let him keep going, dazed, past 0 hit points, but making death saves as per usual. Either that or the One Ring deals ongoing damage (save ends) to bloodied characters and Boromir couldn't shake that off before he passed out.

 

[Mallus]

Please do not try to speak for me, or try to tell me what I feel. My sense of immersion - which is highly subjective - is less bothered by hitpoints than by healing surges. That is a fact, no matter what you think I think or should think.

I wasn't talking about your sense of immersion, or what you felt. I was reiterating the point that both mechanics are unrealistic.

 

[Mallus]

I would say that it is more accurate to say that, while both mechanics are unrealistic, one is far more unrealistic than the other

I think at this point we've left the realm of logic and strayed into aesthetics.

Again, just because a 20 foot drop can kill you, it doesn't follow that a 20 foot drop and a 200 foot drop are co-equal.

I'm tempted to reply 'just because you include numbers in your argument doesn't lend it the strength of a mathematical proof'.

 

[apoptosis]

OK. I but I think I have a valid point that simulationists shouldn't be overly fond of abstract, ablative hit point mechanics in the first place.

.

And you do. HP by themselves are far from the best simulationist mechanic. Rolemaster has a much better one as it is real-time, describes "real" injuries and the consequences of said injuries affect things mechanically.

IN general i think wound mechanics (such as BW has) are superior to HP mechanics for strong simulation of combat as they come closer to addressing what an injury is in "real life"

Of course in real life injuries can really suck.