A solution to LA?

[Kerrick]

So I was looking over the Types/subtypes this morning, and I noticed this line from the Humanoid Type entry:

Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws.

I've been wrestling with a way to either fix the LA system or get rid of it entirely, and this gave me an idea: Why not apply class levels in place of racial HD ("levels")? For example, a stone giant with 10 levels of fighter has 4d8 (giant HD) + 10d10 (fighter HD). He keeps all his racial abilities, bonuses, and whatnot. If he gains 15 levels of fighter, he starts gaining extra d10s as normal. Since giant HD are worth less than class levels, CR-wise (according to UK's challenge ratings system, giants are 0.55/HD, and class levels are 0.8/level without equipment), you can make a small note for conversion - CR +0.33/level, round down. So if you want to add 10 levels, he becomes an ECL 15 (CR 12 for stone giant, +3 for his class levels).

Templates are even easier - you just add the CR modifier as an LA. For example, the vampire template (again, according to UK) is CR +7, which would translate to LA +4 (7 * 0.83). A L10 vampire fighter would thus be ECL 14.

It's a really simple fix, but I'm sure there's something wrong with it because it's so simple.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I've done some of this, where racial classes and such haven't been available (i.e., I've not got around to those ones yet .) For instance, a Succubus Sorceress, most recently.

By the way, the giant should increase by 0.25 CR per HD of Fighter, not 0.33. So actually, it looks more 'right' in the end (IMO): CR 14, rather than 15. After all, it's only gained a tiny amount of HP and 6 feats. Which doesn't seem much at all, the more I think about it. . .

But yeah, can't see too much wrong with the idea, in general terms.

 

[Kerrick]

By the way, the giant should increase by 0.25 CR per HD of Fighter, not 0.33. So actually, it looks more 'right' in the end (IMO): CR 14, rather than 15.

I divided 0.55 by 0.8, which gave me 0.67, so I figured a HD converted to level would be +1/3. +1/4 is probably closer to the mark.

After all, it's only gained a tiny amount of HP and 6 feats. Which doesn't seem much at all, the more I think about it. . .

It's not, really. The old ECL is LA + HD + CR, which leads me to think that LA just accounts for special abilities and stat boosts, not HD.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Guh, never mind. It was one of those moments I just shouldn't have posted. For some reason, I was getting mixed messages about CR, ECL and. . . well, the whole thing actually.

What I had been doing was similar, as it turns out, but not the same. A thing from DM-side, not player-, and therefore not necessarily relevant.

Sorry, that was quite the daftness on my behalf.

 

[Kerrick]

Guh, never mind. It was one of those moments I just shouldn't have posted. For some reason, I was getting mixed messages about CR, ECL and. . . well, the whole thing actually.

What I had been doing was similar, as it turns out, but not the same. A thing from DM-side, not player-, and therefore not necessarily relevant.

Sorry, that was quite the daftness on my behalf.

Feel free to explain. I'd like to see a different take on this. Are you talking about working strictly with NPCs?

 

[Kerrick]

After playing around with things and testing stuff out, I've discovered a few things. (Note: I'll refer to racial HD as RHD hereafter to save space.)

Since racial abilities are part of the HD (much like class abilities are already factored into class levels), the formula ECL = HD + LA + class level is totally screwed - they're taxing you twice for those racial abilities. Not only that, but they're counting RHD as equal to class levels, which they're not. UK accounted for the differing saves, BAB, and skill points of each type by giving them different values, but even the best (dragon) is only 3/4 as good as a class level (assuming appropriate gear for the level; otherwise they're nearly equal).

Here's how it works:

Find the CR modifier for the monster's type (since we're using the stone giant, giant HD are 0.55) and convert that to class levels (1.0/level). Effectively, you divide 0.55 by 1 - so each racial HD is worth roughly half a class level. So, as the PC gains levels, he swaps his RHD for the newly gained levels. His ECL is 1/2 RHD (round down) + class level. For example, a stone giant Ftr 1 is ECL 6 (13/2, round down) + 1 = 7. At L5, he'd be ECL 4 (9/2) + 5 = 9. If you use this method, however, you can't calculate XP requirements based on ECL, since the ECL only increases every 4 levels (for this PC). Instead, the number of XP required is based on his character level as normal, and his ECL is used ONLY for determining his effective power level for things like what kind of enemies (and his party) can handle, or for the Leadership feat. Since the number of total HD (racial + class levels) remains static until class level exceeds the original RHD total, he doesn't suffer against spells and effects based on HD.

Effectively, his "level adjustment" decreases as he gains levels, until it becomes 0 when his class levels exceed his original RHD.

A stone giant Ftr 1 is ECL 7
A stone giant Ftr 4 is ECL 9
A stone giant Ftr 7 is ECL 10
A stone giant Ftr 10 is ECL 12
A stone giant Ftr 14 is ECL 14.


To use another example: the minotaur. Monstrous humanoid HD are 0.6, so we'd count 2/3 of the minotaur's HD as class levels.

A minotaur Ftr 1 is ECL 4.
A minotaur Ftr 4 is ECL 5.
A minotaur Ftr 7 is ECL 7.

So basically, a monster's entry would read something like: "Subtract the monster's class levels from its HD total, multiply the remaining HD by [CR modifier], and add that to the class level (round down)."

 

[Angrydad]

My understanding of the LA system is that a monsters LA is due to its stat bonuses, powers, natural armor, etc. while any Saves, HP, BAB, skills, etc. are due to its racial HD. In my campaigns we've always allowed players who want to be a monster race to do it as long as the LA +level(s) in a class or two was equal to the average party level. This means that a Minotaur fighter would be able to join the group when they were level 3 (LA of +2 added to level 1 fighter). It keeps us from having to do all the "racial HD are actually only .67 of a level in a class" calculating and so on. I think if you allowed a minotaur with a level of fighter to be considered a 4th level character (as in the above post) you'd find out he's considerably tougher/stronger than a 4th level human fighter. I'll just use the standard minotaur stats from the MM and then add 1 level of fighter.

HD: 6d8+12, 1d10+2 (46 hp) BAB/Grapple: +7/+15

These two figures alone make the minotaur fighter more powerful than any 4th level fighter type character. Admittedly, the minotaur may not have as many feats as a 4th level fighter, but he will have more HP (the only way a human fighter of 4th level could have 46 HP is to roll well, have a high Con, and take Toughness) and a better attack bonus that allows him an additional attack every round. The only way a 4th level fighter can get as many attacks is by two weapon fighting, but his to hit is going to be lower. Also, the minotaur fighter uses larger weapons and can dish out tons more damage thanks to his +8 Str modifier. A minotaur fighter using a greataxe does 3d6+6 damage per hit.

All my assumptions and the example I used are assuming the basic stats for the minotaur from the MM. If a player was allowed to roll up a minotaur character and place stats as chosen I think it would make for an even more powerful fighter. There's potential for a 26 Str from the start. That would make for 3d6+12 damage per hit with a greataxe.

 

[Klaus]

I give a monster Commoner levels equal to its LA. It's a class with all poor saves, poor BAB and low HD, but it's still easier to calculate than factoring in LA here and there.

 

[GlassEye]

...according to UK's challenge ratings system...

Where would one find this information?

 

[Angrydad]

I give a monster Commoner levels equal to its LA. It's a class with all poor saves, poor BAB and low HD, but it's still easier to calculate than factoring in LA here and there.

So you give it Commoner levels in place of what? I think there's a lot of you who don't understand the LA system in d20 the same way I understand it. My understanding is simply this: if you want to see what level character a monster (just from the basic MM stats) would be compared to a PC race with class levels you just take the LA+the HD of the monster. It's that simple. If you don't want the monster to have all its racial HD you can simply give them varying amounts of levels in some heroic class to make things equal out to the party's average level. All these complicated equations you all keep mentioning and spreading out the monster's abilities over several levels, and all the other solutions just seem unnecessary and more trouble than they're worth.