Minions and hps

[keterys]

I _really_ like minions - it doesn't mean I'm happy with how they interface with automatic damage. I also would not be certain that autodamage abilities were designed to interact with minions _at all_.

After all, people may recall that the minions from DDXP _required_ a hit to kill.

For my own games, we aren't using XP so I can always toss on a few extra minions if I don't feel they'll be challenging enough. It doesn't mean I don't want the system improved.

 

[James McMurray]

I get the feeling that a lot of people in here just don't like minions. In that case, I heartily recommend not using them. I have a feeling that trying to make them something they are not will lead to frustration, but YMMV.

I can't speak for a lot of people, but since you quoted me, I'll reply by reiterating my early post: I love minions, mooks, extras, or whatever the game system calls them. I don't like boring ones that die with no threat at all and leave behind free experience points. If I want that I'll populate the enemy forces with peasants.

Granted, I don't have much experience in paragon tier, but in Epic and Heroic they are useful in this exact fashion, I've found.

I'd be curious to hear your party makeup in that epic game. In our game anything that dies to auto damage takes a minor action fighter stance to ensure it dies. If they're spread out then it may also take a standard action Come and Get It to draw them in. It would be even worse if the warlock's player hadn't felt that a reaping rod in his off hand to kill two minions a round was too cheesy.

Granted I've only used minions twice because of how boring they were. Perhaps you could shed some light on a way to use them that's fun and doesn't require a house rule or hand out near free experience to anyone willing to spend a minor action on them.

 

[On Puget Sound]

How about using the well-know Inverse Ninja Law?

HP=xO/N where:
HP is the "buffer" as described upthread, the amount of damage in a single blow required to kill a minion.
x is a variable set by the GM, most commonly equal to 1 but sometimes equal to the encounter level.
N= number of ninjas...err, minions...currently alive.
O = number of minions you started the encounter with.

So, if you start with 12 minions they drop on any hit...at first. After 8 have dropped, it takes 3 HP to kill them, and should one survive alone, that super-ninja ignores hits of less than 12!

 

[James McMurray]

How about using the well-know Inverse Ninja Law?

HP=xO/N where:
HP is the "buffer" as described upthread, the amount of damage in a single blow required to kill a minion.
x is a variable set by the GM, most commonly equal to 1 but sometimes equal to the encounter level.
N= number of ninjas...err, minions...currently alive.
O = number of minions you started the encounter with.

So, if you start with 12 minions they drop on any hit...at first. After 8 have dropped, it takes 3 HP to kill them, and should one survive alone, that super-ninja ignores hits of less than 12!

Sounds like a cool idea for a boss fight if you bump the numbers up a little and make it a communal entity instead of a swarm of minions.

 

[Regicide]

Then perhaps the simplest solution is to simply make the minions worth less xp. Instead of getting 4 minions per normal monster, make it 5 per normal monster.

I will agree with some posters that if there is a problem with minions, it probably the autodamaging powers in the game.

It's not just autodamaging, but the fact that they have 1 HP. Normal monsters generally get more HP and AC at higher levels, minions only get AC but their HPs remain at 1 meaning it gets even easier at higher levels to kill minions, which is bad.

There is a complete disconnect between effort to kill them and the amount of XP they give. A dragonborn's breath might kill 25 of them and give over 6 monster's worth of XP! This means that as a DM you have to jump through hoops in order to use these things without them turning into free XP. Thanks WotC, but I'd rather keep track of a few HPs than have to jump through hoops!

 

[keterys]

Err, it's not easier to kill minions at higher level because of their 1 HP-ness. It always requires one hit. Other creatures hp scale to ~roughly take the same number of rounds of attacks, just from higher enhancement bonus, higher stat bonus, more encounter powers instead of at-wills, etc.

It's easier because area effects get larger, more area effects are enemies only, and auto damage abilities become increasingly common.

 

[Gort]

Perhaps an increase in defenses and immunity to auto-damage effects is in order?

 

[KarinsDad]

Perhaps an increase in defenses and immunity to auto-damage effects is in order?

Immunity to anything seems to defeat the purpose of minions. Even their immunity to "to hit attacks that miss" is mechanically forced and awkward. Every other creature in the book is damaged, but minions are immune. That's backwards and solely there due to game balance reasons.

I'm also not too keen on damage threshold house rules since area effects do the same damage to all of the minions in the area. Hence, one either kills them all or kills none of them.

I prefer "to hit" type rules such as odd (or randomly per encounter even) to hit bloodies a minion, auto-damage attack bloodies a minion, even to hit kills it, natural 20 kills it, second "damage" kills it. That way, the minions can still be one shoted, or killed with 2 attacks that damage it, but they can sometimes be bloodied as well. If I used these types of house rules, I would take away their current "miss" immunity.

 

[CSK]

How about:

1. Any hit kills a minion.
2. Any damage not from a hit bloodies a minion.
3. Any damage to a bloodied minion kills it.

That way, autodamage takes two passes to kill a minion, but it's not useless or instant death. Area of effect spells will kill some, but not necessarily all minions, etc. And it's only slightly more work to track than current rules, plus gives the occasional bloodied-benefit.

 

[Nifft]

There are two basic problems with minions.

1/ Auto-damage powers = auto-kill powers.

2/ Temporary hit points from Leader critters.

Any solution ought to address both.

Cheers, -- N