D&D 4E Is 4E doing it for you?

[Irda Ranger]

I find that the M:tG exception based design works because the exceptions are kept limited. Each new cycle brings in new keywords and exceptions but the balance and playability are maintained because the old sets are cycled out. As a player I need only keep track of the current card rules and don't have to worry about or remember keywords from several years ago.

I too can see this sucking in a few years as rule bloat starts to occur (PHB2-6 and Splats) and more and more keywords are brought in. It also keeps creating more work and chances for the designers to miss an interaction between exceptions they weren't anticipating.

Take another look at your post. Do you see the difference? In D&D you allow the rules to bloat, and in MtG, you don't allow the rules to bloat. If you pruned your D&D deck as carefully as your MtG deck this wouldn't be a problem.

D&D Core Rules + Horror & Taint = Ravenloft
D&D Core Rules + Survival & Stone Tools = Dark Sun
D&D Core Rules + Factions & Planars = Planescape
D&D Core Rules + Horror & Taint + Survival & Stone Tools + Factions & Planars = A bloody mess.

Just 'cause you own all the books doesn't mean you have to use 'em all in every campaign.

 

[Celtavian]

The PCs in my campaign have used:

Comprehend Language
Silence
Tenser's Floating Disk
Endure Elements
Detect Secret Doors (after some terrible Perception checks )
Arcane Lock
Knock
Discern Lies
Sending
Speak with Dead

Have you been designing your own adventures? We're running WotC modules right now and they don't seem to be providing us with many opportunities for ritual use.

It may be that rituals aren't being used because I'm not playing the wizard as well. I don't know why this is, but most of the players in my group focus mostly on combat and rarely find interesting uses for rituals and the like. Too new to the game maybe.

 

[Harlekin]

Harlekin,
My 20% (per single hit?) that I came up with is a start of 15 with 5 stat improvements becomes 20, while the guy that starts at 20 and uses all 8 improvements becomes 28. Whoever is better at damage calculations for an encounter please feel free to figure this out or to correct the frequency in which I would be dealing out damage per encounter please feel free (not something I've figured out how to do yet)
Thanks

Fair enough. However, you are aware that you are suggesting raising your prime attribute only every other time when you have that choice? Normally it is quite possible to increase your prime attribute every time without sacrificing your concept. With the scheme you are suggesting you are spreading attribute increases evenly over 4 different stats. I am not sure which character concept would require that.

Edit: Furthermore, increasing your prime attribute in 3.x with only every other increase is equally gimping your character.

 

[Fifth Element]

Yup. That's why I've gotten rid of all the "random bonus" items and only use fun stuff. There are no +1 longswords, just flameswords and dragonbanes. I figure if it's magical it must be cool.

Yes. Magic items that just give a numeric bonus seem so bland. It's the special effects that make them interesting.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Take another look at your post. Do you see the difference? In D&D you allow the rules to bloat, and in MtG, you don't allow the rules to bloat. If you pruned your D&D deck as carefully as your MtG deck this wouldn't be a problem.

D&D Core Rules + Horror & Taint = Ravenloft
D&D Core Rules + Survival & Stone Tools = Dark Sun
D&D Core Rules + Factions & Planars = Planescape
D&D Core Rules + Horror & Taint + Survival & Stone Tools + Factions & Planars = A bloody mess.

Just 'cause you own all the books doesn't mean you have to use 'em all in every campaign.

Same with any system. You can always limit splat, but doing so is hard to do. Hence all the complaints about rules bloat we always end up with.

 

[Callowbran]

4e is a powerful, flexible gaming system. It gives players a lot of new, interesting options.

Is it *better* than earlier systems? I think so, but the key to D&D for me is the people I game with, not the rules.

I had no interest in seeing a new edition of D&D but I think Wizards did a bang-up job.

 

[Scribble]

Same with any system. You can always limit splat, but doing so is hard to do. Hence all the complaints about rules bloat we always end up with.

Since 4e seems to be built with the idea of "Yes, we are going to sell splat" and things are built on a case by case basis... Theoretically it should be easier to fix problems and make changes, as they won't ripple through the system quite as much, and effect the core.

Whether this actually ends up panning out or not... Shrug.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Take another look at your post. Do you see the difference? In D&D you allow the rules to bloat, and in MtG, you don't allow the rules to bloat. If you pruned your D&D deck as carefully as your MtG deck this wouldn't be a problem...

Just 'cause you own all the books doesn't mean you have to use 'em all in every campaign.

Always true.

However, 4E seems to be designed more as a serial than as a core stand alone product. By absenting some of the previous core material from the current core material, it sets up a variety of expectations from players and DMs. While many groups were happy to play core only in 3.x, I'm not too sure how many will stick to just the core three in 4E? Does this means rules bloat? I don't think it will get too bad because of how well they have streamlined the base rules. I still think it's an intereting point though.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Irda Ranger]

4E seems to be designed more as a serial than as a core stand alone product ...

4E isn't a "serial", because serial implies a (1st, 2nd, 3rd, ...) arrangement. There isn't one, other than in the book titles. 4E is modular.

I'm not too sure how many will stick to just the core three in 4E ...

I'll be more interested to see how many people abandon the PHB1 classes. After all, 4E assumes "Defender", not "Fighter." Once they release Bards you could play an All-Arcane Campaign (Swordmage, Bard, Warlock, Wizard). Or an all Divine or Psionic campaign, once the (Role/Power Source) grid is filled in a bit more. You can already play a No-Divine-Classes campaign without losing any roles.

Having many choices to choose from is good, but anyone who complains about rules bloat in 4E only has themselves to blame.

 

[Irda Ranger]

You can always limit splat, but doing so is hard to do. Hence all the complaints about rules bloat we always end up with.

Such complainers have my sympathies.

Not.