Your character died. Big deal.

If a tool can be used effectively to generate fun, but it is instead being used to generate dislike of said tool, then either (1) the tool is being used incorrectly, or (2) the goal is not to have fun, but perhaps to generate dislike.

or (3) the tool is not applicable in the particular situation.

A hammer and nail can join two pieces of wood together, except when you don't have room to swing the hammer, or when your pieces of wood are two fragile for the violent process of hammering. Then, you need glue, or some other method of binding wood together.

Not all tools are equally effective in all situations that have the same general goal.
 

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SoD can be used effectively if only one person at the table understands how to use it....namely, the DM.

I've been reading along, and I just have to interject, because my experiences with SoD are completely differently than what anyone else here has discussed.

I use SoD like any other attack in 3e, and I use SoD monsters like any others in 3e. No special treatment. In fact, PCs die to SoD left and right in my games. But, here's the real kicker - there has never, ever, in all my 3e games, been a permanent death to any SoD ability or spell in my years of playing it. Every single time, the dead PC was raised.

I think everybody is looking at SoD in 3e wrong. You weren't meant to avoid it. You were meant to die! And, of course, be subsequently raised from the dead.

Well, at least that's how we played it, saw it, and that playstyle worked fine. It seems like SoD was built as only a minor inconvenience in 3e, which is fine, because I like keeping the same PCs through the whole campaign like the Death Flag guys. Of course, I never had to use a Death Flag in 3e to accomplish the exact same thing, since there was no need.

I assume 4e will work the same way.

I know we didn't do much raising in 2e, but I don't know if that was because about half the Factions had a "no raising from the dead" clause built into them. I know there was still raising going on in my 2e games when allowed, but that was Planescape, so I'm already outside the norm there. :)
 

Well, at least that's how we played it, saw it, and that playstyle worked fine. It seems like SoD was built as only a minor inconvenience in 3e, which is fine, because I like keeping the same PCs through the whole campaign like the Death Flag guys. Of course, I never had to use a Death Flag in 3e to accomplish the exact same thing, since there was no need.

The fascinating truth is that you had an implicit "Death Flag"-like mechanic in 3E - a character can always refuse to be raised from the dead!

The fact that nobody did says a lot.
 

My favourite thing about that quote is that it offers a very clear account of a fortune-in-the-middle mechanic in a 30-year-old rulebook.

Yet people complain about them in 4e as if they were new to D&D! (Admittedly 4e makes them more extensive - but still, they were there way back when.)


Your guys' lingo has reached a point where I don't understand what you're saying anymore.
 

Raven Crowking said:
If a tool can be used effectively to generate fun, but it is instead being used to generate dislike of said tool, then either (1) the tool is being used incorrectly, or (2) the goal is not to have fun, but perhaps to generate dislike.

or (3) the tool is not applicable in the particular situation.

If you will re-read the bit you quoted, you will notice that the first words are "If a tool can be used effectively to generate fun". This makes what follows an IF/THEN statement, which already acknowledges your (3) by requiring an IF that the tool is applicable.

So, I'll stand by the statement as written, thank you. :)


RC
 

I think everybody is looking at SoD in 3e wrong. You weren't meant to avoid it. You were meant to die! And, of course, be subsequently raised from the dead.

Well, at least that's how we played it, saw it, and that playstyle worked fine. It seems like SoD was built as only a minor inconvenience in 3e,

But its more than just a minor inconvenience in 3e. Its a pretty steep cost through ~10th level, plus you end up weaker and less able to deal with the next SoD. Plus, you end up having to sit out the game till the party can drag your body back to town to find a cleric.

If Raise Dead were available sooner, were cheaper, and didn't involve a level loss, then I'd agree that it wasn't much different from just being really knocked out.
 


So, I'll stand by the statement as written, thank you. :)

You're free to stand by it, if you like standing next to something vague :)

I maintain that it was underspecified. "If the tool can be used" is insufficient to tell us whether you mean in the general sense, or in a particular case - the statement is not actually meaningful without that differentiation. Now that we have extracted that you mean the individual case, we can move on.
 

The fascinating truth is that you had an implicit "Death Flag"-like mechanic in 3E - a character can always refuse to be raised from the dead!

The fact that nobody did says a lot.
Well, I would say: People never really died for "all the right reasons" - like in a crucial moment when fulfilling one of the character goals, or just plain when defending a friend. Save or Die tends to rarely put you in such a situation. Unless you somehow manage to grant cover for a Disintegrate or Finger of Death spell, you die just for yourself, not for someone else, not for a greater thing. Why would I want to stay dead for that?

A Death Flag mechanic works thematically different - you put up the flag when you want to spend all your effort, risk your characters life, to achieve something. The same is true for Torgs "Martyr" card - you don't just die because a stray bullet hit you, because you rolled low on your save - you died because you tried to take down that Oger before he could hit your friend another time, you died because you had to stop the cultist leader, you died because you took the bullet for a friend.

And in my games, characters occassionally died. After the nrd death of my Fighter in our Shackled City campaign, I announced that he no longer wanted to be raised. I was getting tired of the constant dying...
 

But its more than just a minor inconvenience in 3e. Its a pretty steep cost through ~10th level, plus you end up weaker and less able to deal with the next SoD. Plus, you end up having to sit out the game till the party can drag your body back to town to find a cleric.

My last 3e game ran from 1-20. They could afford Raise Dead at 5th level. Not many SoD effects at that level, so that spell worked. By the time they hit SoD stuff, they could easily afford the good stuff. As for losing a level, with individual XP awards in 3.5, a dead PC easily made up the XP loss, and could even come out ahead of the other PCs after a session. The having to sit out part of the game, however, is a huge deterrent for death.
 

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