D&D 4E Forked Thread: Some Thoughts on 4e

2. Do not forget, that in previous Editions, a wizard was just spectacular for 1 or 2 encounters of the day. Then he usually was out of high powerd spells and couldnt do much at all.
Yes, all he had to do after running out of spells was to fire his crossbow, or cast some back up scrolls.
I remember a 4E designer stating that they didn't want that to happen in 4E, since being a wizard was all about "shooting magic all day long".
Guess what they did? Crossbows in 4E are now called Magic Missile, and they are even considered "magical", somehow.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


If "heroism" is "how much damage I do in a round" to you, play a striker. Those do lots of damage. They are heroic.

It's not so much about the damage dealt but rather the amount of damage that has to be dealt. Heroism is about getting to do things that fighting a couple kobolds all day prevent you from doing.
 

As a tabletop miniatures battle game this works great. If I don't want combat to take up the overwhelming majority of the game time there are other systems that don't feel like such a grindfest. Sliding minis around a map while carving through the mountains of hit points do not make the combat more engaging for me.

Spells should be named for what they do. The sleep spell should be called lethargy, because its very easy to cast this thing and have NOTHING fall asleep. Confusion? The only thing confusing about that spell is why it carries that name. Psychic damage and mind control..........well I'm confused.

As far as feeling heroic goes, my character feels a bit less heroic if he stands a chance of dying of old age before dropping a couple of kobolds.

So, you have a horrible DM, or you are playing through Keep and haven't hit 2nd level yet.

That's a flaw of KoTS, or the general concept of a themed adventure where you have recurring villains ... you fight similar monsters over and over again.

As for sleep ... what did those types of effects do in 3e? I believe it was EITHER nothing at all [save] or something really cool [knocked them out].

In 4e, it does something automatically, and if you both hit and they fail their save, then it does something cool.

[Note: Save ends was the replacement of the 1d4 rounds type of effects from 3.5 ... while save ends means that over half he time, assuming no penalties, the effect will end after a turn, there are ways to impose penalties, etc]

Judging the game based on a combination of the first half of the pre-release adventure and evaluating the theoretical effect of spells [how often have you seen/used the spells that are so dreadful] isn't going to give you a good view of things.

I am playing in Scales of War, while running players through the H modules [were past half way in H-2]. Things get more exciting, even in the H books. It's not all kobolds all the time. And honestly, I doubt any encounter lasted more than 6 rounds, if that. The rounds might take a bit longer, but this is entirely based on the people involved ... if people have to look up powers, hmm and haw about what to do, where to move, etc ... it can make it SEEM like it's going longer. And without one-hit kill spells [although there are always minions :)] it's going to take a few shots to bring people down, especially brutes and soldiers. Concentration of fire does a LOT to kill off "mountains of hit points". Similarly, I've seen the monsters concentrate their fire and take down fighters and paladins in a single round.

As you level you are constantly getting new stuff to do, and opportunities to swap out powers if you want to try other stuff.

And ultimately ... the WOTC adventure books are dungeon crawls. This doesn't necessarily mean that DMs can't make their own campaigns ... but ultimately, most pre-made adventures are going to be grinds. Judging the system by the pre-made adventures is a bit unfair. It's something you should bring up to your DM, and see if he, or someone else, can come up with a campaign that isn't a dungeon crawl.

[For DDI Subscribers, they put up a second part to the Gladiator article, outlining a bunch of skill challenges and other things that could be used for a campaign, or at least adventure, where the PCs become involved with gladiator games. Here, not only are you fighting, but trying to get the crowd on your side, build up you reputation, etc].

It's not so much about the damage dealt but rather the amount of damage that has to be dealt. Heroism is about getting to do things that fighting a couple kobolds all day prevent you from doing.

20 rounds of fighting Kobolds is 2 minutes in game terms. The rest after the fight with the kobolds is going to be longer than the fight itself, and even 10 minutes out of the day isn't much.

Ultimately, your basically saying that fighting kobolds isn't heroic. It didn't USED to be heroic, because they would barely hit, and had so few hit points they were basicaly minions. Kobolds in 3.5 were jokes. In 4e, they are threats, albeit low level ones.

If they were easy to kill and "get on with your day" then odds are they wouldn't need adventurers to deal with the threat, they wouldn't be considered menaces to a town. They would be seen as nuisances, the way you seem to consider them, based in part by how they were represented in 3.5.

And, ultimately, it is only the BEGINNING of your heroic career where you deal with kobolds, there are other monstrous races higher up the ladder, not to mention undead and various beasts, etc, etc, etc.

If you see the fights in 4e as nuisances that arise while you are attempting heroic work, than the ending of the nuisance isn't heroic. Of course, it completely ignores the fact that those kobolds, left unchecked would proceed to do what kobolds do ... and those eaten babies would be on your hands. Killing kobolds = saving babies. Is saving babies unheroic?
 
Last edited:

You just hurt my brain. Really. What the heck is the combat challenge for then? Or do you not consider a "melee basic attack against that enemy as an immediate interrupt" to be a AoO?

Careful. While it's close enough for the point you're making ("Fighters deal more damage due to the extra attacks they get to make"), it's a bad trap to start thinking of the Combat Challenge immediate interrupt as an OA. It's not an OA, so things like Wis bonus on OAs or Combat Superiority's stop-movement-on-OAs don't apply.

If you talk about the fighter potentially getting several extra attacks in a round, that can include Combat Challenge, plus an OA or two. But Combat Challenge doesn't provide OAs as such.

-Hyp.
 


Then I guess you are not understanding me.

Any chance you'll answer my repeated question then? So we can be better equipped to understand one another?

In 3.x you always readied the action to disrupt the wizard. No doubt.

This is just patently ridiculous. After 11th level you grappled them while your own wizard stood nearby with his antimagic shell up. :)

Your defender doesn't get at least one AoO a round?

Our defenders rarely average one OA a round. Of course, the monsters are usually too smart to take a beating trying to walk away or attack someone else, so they beat on the fighters instead.

Guess what they did? Crossbows in 4E are now called Magic Missile, and they are even considered "magical", somehow.

Do you really see wizards that just cast Magic Missile repeatedly once they're out of encounters and dailies? Granted our wizards have usually been human so far, but even with only 2 at-will, MM is not always (I'd say rarely) the optimal choice.
 

So, you have a horrible DM, or you are playing through Keep and haven't hit 2nd level yet.

That's a flaw of KoTS, or the general concept of a themed adventure where you have recurring villains ... you fight similar monsters over and over again.

As for sleep ... what did those types of effects do in 3e? I believe it was EITHER nothing at all [save] or something really cool [knocked them out].

In 4e, it does something automatically, and if you both hit and they fail their save, then it does something cool. ?

We just hit 2nd level last session. Our DM is new to game mastering and doesn't have the time to write up his own campaign.

Fighting groups of the same type of monster isn't the problem. In a goblin lair I would expect to find many goblins. I would not be shocked or dissapointed if I found goblins there.

I would actually rather have some of the targets completely unaffected on a successful save and have those that fail meaningfully affected than have no one fall asleep from a spelled named "sleep".


20 rounds of fighting Kobolds is 2 minutes in game terms. The rest after the fight with the kobolds is going to be longer than the fight itself, and even 10 minutes out of the day isn't much.

Its not about time in the game world. Its all about the actual time spent on scrub encounters in the real world. A fight we had with a group of kobolds outside near a waterfall took 15 rounds to finish. Not much time in the game at all-but after an hour and a half grinding on a non-climactic battle our eyes had glazed over and we (the players) were mentally fatigued by the whole thing.

Ultimately, your basically saying that fighting kobolds isn't heroic. It didn't USED to be heroic, because they would barely hit, and had so few hit points they were basicaly minions. Kobolds in 3.5 were jokes. In 4e, they are threats, albeit low level ones.

If they were easy to kill and "get on with your day" then odds are they wouldn't need adventurers to deal with the threat, they wouldn't be considered menaces to a town. They would be seen as nuisances, the way you seem to consider them, based in part by how they were represented in 3.5.

Dealing with whatever threat the kobolds are involved in can be heroic. Fighting with small groups of kobolds in the overall scheme of things should not require so much game time.

Climactic encounters with leaders and special forces (kobold SAS lol:) ) are different. These are the types of encounters that are more meaningful to the events in the campaign and thus worthy of more playing time.

And, ultimately, it is only the BEGINNING of your heroic career where you deal with kobolds, there are other monstrous races higher up the ladder, not to mention undead and various beasts, etc, etc, etc.

Kobolds are just the example for 1st level. As the campaign goes on the dynamics don't change. You still fight small groups of whatever you are fighting and taking a long time to do so.

If you see the fights in 4e as nuisances that arise while you are attempting heroic work, than the ending of the nuisance isn't heroic. Of course, it completely ignores the fact that those kobolds, left unchecked would proceed to do what kobolds do ... and those eaten babies would be on your hands. Killing kobolds = saving babies. Is saving babies unheroic?

Ending the threat is the heroic action needed. Coming to terms with whoever or whatever is behind the threat is the focus. Taking an extraordinary amount of game time to deal with the flunky encounters does not feel heroic.
 

Its not about time in the game world. Its all about the actual time spent on scrub encounters in the real world. A fight we had with a group of kobolds outside near a waterfall took 15 rounds to finish. Not much time in the game at all-but after an hour and a half grinding on a non-climactic battle our eyes had glazed over and we (the players) were mentally fatigued by the whole thing.

Can you provide more information? I agree 15 rounds on some kobolds is way too long.
 


Remove ads

Top