Forked Thread: Did 4e go far enough or to far?

[Fifth Element]

Yes, but (perhaps with the exception of how the different marks work) aren't the mechanics for each class the same? I mean did you need to learn any different mechanics to play any of those classes?

The strikers' different extra damage mechanics, perhaps.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Yes, but (perhaps with the exception of how the different marks work) aren't the mechanics for each class the same? I mean did you need to learn any different mechanics to play any of those classes?

The mechanics being different is superficial. What is different is what you do, not how you do it.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Yes, but (perhaps with the exception of how the different marks work) aren't the mechanics for each class the same? I mean did you need to learn any different mechanics to play any of those classes?

Is it necessary to learn a different mechanic? I find it a particular genius that using a very similar mechanical setup for all classes, they still managed to create different ways to play them. You don't master a mechanic, you master the tactics of a class.

2Korgoth: I can't say I particularly identify with either of these two groups you set out. I think it is more something in the middle. GURPS is probably not the thing I am looking for, though I might agree with other aspects (like less focus on strategy/operation play - I prefer tactical play...)

 

[Imaro]

The strikers' different extra damage mechanics, perhaps.

Uhm...I probably wasn't clear, I meant for "marking" to encompass this as well as the Defenders actual marking abilities, etc. for the different classes.

The mechanics being different is superficial. What is different is what you do, not how you do it.

For you. But it isn't just superficial for some people. Many people may actually get a sense of individuality from their character having different mechanics in play than others do. It's a preference thing and not in anyway objectively superficial...otherwise why not just play Risus?

Is it necessary to learn a different mechanic? I find it a particular genius that using a very similar mechanical setup for all classes, they still managed to create different ways to play them. You don't master a mechanic, you master the tactics of a class.

No one said it was necessary, different people are stimulated in different ways, especially when it comes to games. To claim "You don't master a mechanic, you master the tactics of a class" is just the preaching of Badwrongfun (or whatever it's called). Who are you to say that people can not have fun in mastering mechanics...or better yet fun in both mastering mechanics and tactics. I see the mastering of tactics no different from the mastering of mechanics... just a different preference of fun for some.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

For you. But it isn't just superficial for some people. Many people may actually get a sense of individuality from their character having different mechanics in play than others do. It's a preference thing and not in anyway objectively superficial...otherwise why not just play Risus?


No one said it was necessary, different people are stimulated in different ways, especially when it comes to games. To claim "You don't master a mechanic, you master the tactics of a class" is just the preaching of Badwrongfun (or whatever it's called). Who are you to say that people can not have fun in mastering mechanics...or better yet fun in both mastering mechanics and tactics. I see the mastering of tactics no different from the mastering of mechanics... just a different preference of fun for some.

The thing is, there is nothing inherently necessary about having different mechanics. There are also inevitable problems with having different mechanics however as in when you use different mechanics, inevitably some mechanics will work better than others. This leads to unintended imbalances in the game. Cohesive design is aided by making things work off of the same skeleton. I'm not saying that different mechanics is badwrongfun, I'm just saying that the game as a whole runs more smoothly without them, and that they are unnecessary.

 

[Cadfan]

Uhm...I probably wasn't clear, I meant for "marking" to encompass this as well as the Defenders actual marking abilities, etc. for the different classes.

They really don't play the same. At all. A defender marks someone in order to force a confrontation. The mark influences the marked target to stay near them, or attack them, or else suffer some penalty.

The striker's extra damage mechanics encourage the opposite. A target who has been designated as a quarry, or who is flanked, has incentive to get away from whoever quarried or flanked them, so as to avoid suffering penalties.

They're the same only in the sense that they both involve choosing a foe to suffer a disadvantage. The means of choosing the foe, the disadvantage suffered, and the tactical consequences that flow from that decision are entirely different.

No one said it was necessary, different people are stimulated in different ways, especially when it comes to games. To claim "You don't master a mechanic, you master the tactics of a class" is just the preaching of Badwrongfun (or whatever it's called). Who are you to say that people can not have fun in mastering mechanics...or better yet fun in both mastering mechanics and tactics. I see the mastering of tactics no different from the mastering of mechanics... just a different preference of fun for some.

They're different, and its ok to prefer mechanical differences, but where your argument drives us batty is when you assume that a lack of full fledged mechanical sub systems somehow translates into tactical similarity. This is not the case.

 

[Mallus]

Many people may actually get a sense of individuality from their character having different mechanics in play than others do.

While others get a sense of individuality from their character by giving them different personalities, ie, making them individuals in the more non-gaming sense. To each his own...

To claim "You don't master a mechanic, you master the tactics of a class" is just the preaching of Badwrongfun (or whatever it's called).

No, it's not. The statement you quoted is not a value judgment. It's a just an observation of a difference between the systems.

Who are you to say that people can not have fun in mastering mechanics...or better yet fun in both mastering mechanics and tactics.

He didn't say that. He was pointing out that 4e puts the emphasis on tactics used during play, rather than "system/build mastery".

You're reading (a lot) into what was written.

 

[malraux]

Or moreover, that d20+ability score+1/2Level vs a defense is really all that different of a mechanic from ability score+1/2level vs a defense + 1d20, which was the major mechanical difference in classes in 3e.

 

[Imaro]

The thing is, there is nothing inherently necessary about having different mechanics. There are also inevitable problems with having different mechanics however as in when you use different mechanics, inevitably some mechanics will work better than others. This leads to unintended imbalances in the game. Cohesive design is aided by making things work off of the same skeleton. I'm not saying that different mechanics is badwrongfun, I'm just saying that the game as a whole runs more smoothly without them, and that they are unnecessary.

Never said it was necessary, but for some it may be fun...and thus could explain why they feel 4e is very bland and samey when it comes to making up a character. It may in all truthfullness feel that way in comparison to them. I enjoy Runequest so I do enjoy games with same-mechanics for abilities...but I can see the other side as well.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Never said it was necessary, but for some it may be fun...and thus could explain why they feel 4e is very bland and samey when it comes to making up a character. It may in all truthfullness feel that way in comparison to them. I enjoy Runequest so I do enjoy games with same-mechanics for abilities...but I can see the other side as well.

Well, D&D is now firmly in the same mechanics camp. It also doesn't appear likely to change back. Thats the way it is. There are also a lot of us who prefer it that way.