Interpretations/citations for Animate Dead details?

[aboyd]

I am planning to do some possibly unusual things with an Animate Dead spell, and I would like feedback on some things that require judgment. I do not need to limit myself to core books here – so if you can find answers/hints about undead in other WotC books, I’d love the citation.

1. Do zombies have memory? Their Intelligence score would imply no. However, they must have some accumulated knowledge; otherwise they would not know what a road was, what “attack” meant, or even how to grip something. So, what level of memory do you think they have?
2. I’ve heard people interpret “follows spoken commands” (part of the Animate Dead description) as that a zombie can follow many commands over time, but it only acts on the most recent one. If so, it isn’t possible to tell a zombie “follow the orders of my team” because any subsequent order from the team would “wipe out” my order. Perhaps the team would be able to issue one order and then the zombie would reset/forget and come back to me. What do you think?
3. I’ve heard people interpret “follows spoken commands” as that a zombie could be issued multiple commands, similar to a programming script with a few branches. In such an interpretation, a zombie could indeed “follow the orders of my team” and do a decent job juggling a few co-existing tasks. What do you think?
4. I’ve heard people compare the 2nd edition Animate Dead description (“follows simple spoken commands”) with the 3.5 edition (“follows spoken commands”), and conclude that Animate Dead now allows for more complex commands to be given. Thus, even if the zombie “forgets” all commands except the latest, the latest can be detailed enough to account for a fair amount and be useful. True? Anything written in any other books to support this claim?
5. How much discernment do their wisdom scores give them?

 

[aboyd]

Hmm. I've had no replies, so let me try a different angle. I'll tell you what I'm hoping to do. I'd like to work within RAW, so suggestions for doing that are welcome.

Our group was headed south toward the town we needed to find. Along the way, a wagon with a family approached. We asked about the town. They confirmed they had just come from there. We asked how the town was doing. "Minor skirmishes, no big deal," we were told. However, our sense motive radar told us he was holding back, so we pressed him for more info. We didn't get much. We moved on... right into a hobgoblin trap just 2 miles down the road.

The fight was brutal, and afterwards, we all sat around the table wondering how the heck the wagoneer managed to get past them. Then we realized he had been covering for them, or involved, or something.

We are (I think) supposed to leave behind the ambush as either a set piece that no longer troubles us, or as a side quest to go hunt down the wagoneer. I would prefer to do neither. There was a freshly killed family in the farmhouse the hobgoblins occupied. I would like to use my Speak With The Dead spell to quiz the family about who killed them, and if the wagoneer was seen or involved. Then, IF the wagoneer was indeed involved, I would like to cast Animate Dead on all of them (the family AND the hobgoblins).

My instruction to the family? "As a group, covertly pursue your attackers along this road or elsewhere and take revenge, then return to the outskirts of town with their cart and any other property you find on them."

That instruction is rife with assumptions. First, are they capable of "covert?" Second, can they handle an instruction that long?

To the hobgoblins, my instruction will be: "As a group, covertly return to where the hobgoblins live, slaughter them in their sleep even if they awaken, then return to the outskirts of town with everything the hobgoblins own, even if it takes multiple trips."

This instruction has another big assumption -- undead remember where they lived in life. For that matter, do undead know where they are in death? Would they know where "town" was?

Perhaps they have no memory at all but merely an imprint from the cleric? In which case they function as well as I cast?

EDIT: Ah, I see in the Monster Manual that both skeletons & zombies say they require "simple instructions." Do you think my instructions are too complicated? How would I break them down into smaller tasks? I could use sending spells to give them additional small instructions as they go.

Also, it appears that they do indeed function only as well as I cast. Their wisdom is apparently only minimally useful. Still not sure what kind of memory they would have, though.

 

[Bladesong]

There is a great deal of “only what the DM will allow” for any of this. There are systems that do indeed bind a part of the soul of the animated dead giving them at least rudimentary intelligence (slower, duller version of their former selves) with the body which also tends to make them slightly insane or very mad (we use such a rule). D&D never really stated that as I can recall although there were slightly more advanced versions of zombies that had some greater levels of thought (I believe the juju zombie was semi-sentient).
I know that as a DM I would look at a few things and make a few judgment calls here.
First off, you could only consider this if you were evil (sorry, I would not abide by good characters making a zombie out of anyone).
As far as this one goes: "As a group, covertly pursue your attackers along this road or elsewhere and take revenge, then return to the outskirts of town with their cart and any other property you find on them." I would rule they cannot do anything covertly and that they can only go EXACTLY where you tell them (i.e. no pursuing). The command would have to be more like: “Follow this road, if you find your attackers kill them and return here with the bodies and the cart if possible. Do not go into the city. If you do not find them before you reach the city, return here.”
As for this one: "As a group, covertly return to where the hobgoblins live, slaughter them in their sleep even if they awaken, then return to the outskirts of town with everything the hobgoblins own, even if it takes multiple trips." Again, a shambling undead is anything but subtle so no “covert” operations. The command would have to be a bit more like this: “Return to your former dwelling and kill all the hobgoblins that are there. Take everything that belonged to them and bring it all back here; if you must make more than one trip, do so (I am assuming the farmhouse as the creation point).”
The zombie family could possibly defeat the people with the cart; I would imagine the bugbears would be more than a match for the zombie bugbears, but it depends what their clan consists of.
As I said at the beginning, this is really all up to the DM. Good luck.

 

[GlassEye]

I think that is way too complex for normal zombies. I would allow for a simple sentence command and nothing more.

Here's how I would answer your questions:

1. I don't think zombies have memory. At all. They have intelligence 0. I don't think they know what roads are or what the word attack means. Obviously, you might think this would give them difficulty in following commands. My supposition is that there is a link between the controller and the zombie and that zombies act more on the intention transmitted through that link than on hearing and understanding commands. The link can be broken or taken over by someone more powerful.

2 & 3. A zombie can follow many commands over time. Only they have to be given one at a time and when one is finished then the next can be given. Zombies will only follow the commands of their controller and won't understand the command 'Follow the orders of my team.' Commands have to be simple. (In fact, the 2e MM says commands have to be 'single-phrase'.)

4. Maybe 3e has expanded the capabilities of the zombie but I don't think so. And no, I don't have any rules to back up my comments.

5. I don't think their wisdom gives them discernment at all. 2e zombies (again, sorry) attack until called off or destroyed. So they don't even have the sense to run away when they're critically injured. I think the 3e wisdom score is there solely so zombies don't have penalties to spot and listen.

 

[Starbuck_II]

My instruction to the family? "As a group, covertly pursue your attackers along this road or elsewhere and take revenge, then return to the outskirts of town with their cart and any other property you find on them."

Too complicated. If you made the ghouls that would work (assuming you turned them under your control or cast Cojntrol undead on them).
Ghouls are giood at being sneaky and smart enough to follow any command.

To the hobgoblins, my instruction will be: "As a group, covertly return to where the hobgoblins live, slaughter them in their sleep even if they awaken, then return to the outskirts of town with everything the hobgoblins own, even if it takes multiple trips."

Again, Skel/zombies don't really remember.
Plus, even if they did too complicated. Remember thety lose all feat/skills of old life showing loss of memories.

If you give them sentience maybe:
Awaken undead spell (that restores memory).

 

[aboyd]

Thank you all for the tips! I've decided to follow the "many commands, but only one at a time" concept. I have some questions.

First off, you could only consider this if you were evil (sorry, I would not abide by good characters making a zombie out of anyone).

My character is True Neutral, and he's been feeling for a long time that he has been pushing a good agenda. He is very eager at this point to darken his tactics a little.

Too complicated. If you made the ghouls that would work (assuming you turned them under your control or cast Cojntrol undead on them).

That actually sounds viable, but I cannot find anything on how to create ghouls. Control Undead is too fleeting. I can't rebuke undead. Is there any other way?

Awaken undead spell (that restores memory).

I don't have Libris Mortis, but Awaken Undead sounds promising. What level spell is it? And does it apply problematic limitations (such as the undead go out of my control or become disobedient)?

Skel/zombies don't really remember.

Yeah, I'm starting to feel that way. It means both my ideas fail -- the hobgoblin zombies cannot remember their hideout, and the family cannot remember who attacked them.

In fact, the 2e MM says commands have to be 'single-phrase'.

I'm glad I'm not playing second edition, then! But thanks for that, it serves as a good guide. I've been trying to limit myself to single sentences, but it seems that I've packed in too much. I'm going to rewrite the commands to be more phrase-like. How about this: "As a group, seek out and kill any hobgoblins you find, returning their corpses and possessions here." I would use that on both the zombie family & zombie hobgoblins.

That brings up a new question. Are clerics aware of their undead? Will the cleric know when the zombies are destroyed?

 

[Starbuck_II]

I don't have Libris Mortis, but Awaken Undead sounds promising. What level spell is it? And does it apply problematic limitations (such as the undead go out of my control or become disobedient)?

No, the Undead are under same control. If they followed you before; they will still follow you.

Spell Compendruim made it 6th Deathbound, 7th wiz/Sorceror
So you may want a scroll of it.

 

[R1C0F3TT]

That brings up a new question. Are clerics aware of their undead? Will the cleric know when the zombies are destroyed?

I think that the cleric would sense if the undead die. I'm not finding this in a book, that's just my opinion. I'm too lazy to go and get the PH, but I'm sure you've reviewed that spell many times, so if it was in there, you would not have asked the question.

 

[Voadam]

"A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions."

Zombies have no int, so no memories of their former lives.

"Zombies are corpses reanimated through dark and sinister magic."

"Because of their utter lack of intelligence, the instructions given to a newly created zombie must be very simple."

I would think you could order the family to go down the road and kill the wagoner if you gave them a description. "Go down the road and kill the man with a brown beard." Of course you run the risk of them coming across another brown bearded man first.

For the hobgoblins I think if you do not know the hobgoblin lair's location you cannot program it into them.

 

[Voadam]

Yeah, I'm starting to feel that way. It means both my ideas fail -- the hobgoblin zombies cannot remember their hideout, and the family cannot remember who attacked them.

You can still use speak with dead to get the ID of their killers.

I'm glad I'm not playing second edition, then! But thanks for that, it serves as a good guide. I've been trying to limit myself to single sentences, but it seems that I've packed in too much. I'm going to rewrite the commands to be more phrase-like. How about this: "As a group, seek out and kill any hobgoblins you find, returning their corpses and possessions here." I would use that on both the zombie family & zombie hobgoblins.

Sets up wandering monster zombies, possibly with loot! Sounds appropriate.

That brings up a new question. Are clerics aware of their undead? Will the cleric know when the zombies are destroyed?

I see nothing in the rules to indicate they have any awareness of their undead creations or even the ones under their control. If you make more in the future the oldest ones if they still exist will go free-willed and I see nothing to indicate you would have any indications one way or the other.